Gas Oil Question for Nigel Luther

[dickh]

Nigel, as you are the expert on fuels, can you answer the following:- Is Gas Oil(Red Diesel) the same as home heating fuel? If so, can heating oil be used on my boat? Is this legal and would anyone know if it wasn't... Heating oil is certainly cheaper than red diesel - 20p as against 32p/liytre approx. Not that it would make a huge difference to my boat fuel costs as I only have a small engine in a sailing boat.
Also, can heating oil be used in my Peugeoy 2.0 HDi diesel car without harm - I know this is illegal as it says on the invoice I must not use it as road fuel... - not that I would dream of depriving the Exchequer of fuel tax!!
I'm sure many people on this forum would be interested in your reply.

dickh
I'd rather be sailing...

 

[Forbsie]

...and another question

There is this huge "Duck" amphibious truck on Eel Pie Island which I have seen motoring both down Twickenham High Street and down the Thames. If he had a diesel engine, what would his legal position be?

<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.arweb.co.uk/argallery/forbsie>My Project Pics</A>

 

[andyball]

There's a letter about this on p.91 of mbm, the mbm view was that heating oil could/did cause a cracked piston + possible injector damage....albeit on a "modern high revving" engine. So I wouldn't try it in your car.

 

[boomer]

We used to run our old Grey Fergie tractor on heating oil if ever we ran out of red diesel. Seemed to use it a bit quicker but that was the only downside. Mind you, that was hardly a highly stressed high-reving engine!

 

[vyv_cox]

Heating oil has a lower viscosity than diesel fuel. Fuel oil can be (and is) used as heating fuel but jet size needs to be increased, at least it does in pressure jet boilers, to allow for the difference. The main problem is that diesel contains wax that begins to solidify at -4 degrees C, so just when you want the heating it won't run because of blocked filters. Can be fixed in fuel by adding a pint of petrol, but not sure if this is a good idea in boilers.

Heating oil will run in engines but again the injector nozzles need to be resized if over-supply is not going to be a problem. Probably not something you can request for your car, but maybe could be done for marine engines. I would think that this oil might be quite common in other, colder countries, e.g. Norway, so perhaps the engine manufacturers can supply alternative nozzles.

 

[Bejasus]

Re: ...and another question

Do you mean, would he be liable for Quax

"I am the master of my fate: I am the captain of my soul."..........I think????

 

[timevans2000]

There are two kinds of heating oil used in houses. normal domestic is 28 second viscosity on the Redwood scale. I think red diesel is closer to the 35 second viscosity stuff which would only be found in domestic boilers equiped with pressure jet burners and commercial heating installations. Farmers use it near me for heating,tractors,generators,etc, with no ill effects. I winter you can mix the 28 second and 35 second stuff together to combat the freezing problem in central heating installations. I dont know of anybody having a problem in a boat of freezing their diesel. Most of use dont sail when it is that cold!

 

[DanTribe]

Re: ...and another question

If he's not careful, he will be up before the beak!

 

[Bejasus]

Re: ...and another question

...and that would surely ruffle his tail feathers.

"I am the master of my fate: I am the captain of my soul."..........I think????

 

[Chris_Robb]

Low Sulphur Diesel

EU commission has recently anounced that Low Sulphur diesel (City Diesel)will be forced on the agricultural community in line with the the agreements on Polution,

Farmers don't like this because the fuel will be 5p more per ltr adding to their costs.

There was also a comment that older engines could have problems running on the purer diesel as Sulphur currently lubricates the injectors etc.

Presumably it would then only be a matter of time for city diesel to be enforced in the marine world.

Any one know about this - especially the effect on older engines?

 

[Guest]

My answer !!

a) Red Diesel is NOT same as Heating Oil, regardless of stock.
b) Heating Oil comes in various fractions from heavy Fuel Oil based through blends of Gasoil to Kerosine base ....
c) Modern cars should never be run on anything such as Red or lower grade diesel than is stipulated.

If you have an old farm machinery, older marine engine - then you can run the lighter grades of Heating Oil, but 1) its illegal, 2) you will have Cold Flow problems from Autumn onwards

Someone on this thread mentioned Wax precipitation .... this is termed Cloud Point where the wax starts to form and clouds the diesel. This is mainly a cosmetic problem for most applications, the real problem comes with Cold Filter Plugging Point ...... this is where the Diesel / Gasoil starts to deposit all sorts of components in solid / semi solid form and blocks the fuel filters and injector systems. At present various additives are commercially available to combat these properties, but Cloud Pt is a particularly difficult one to alter - normally done with a small amount of Kerosine added .... NOT petrol - I would totally advise against petrol ! it is too volatile. CFPP is easily treated and we have successfuklly depressed diesel below -40 C ... into what is termed Arctic Grade !!!!

So if you can find a Heating Oil that is NOT K4, F3 or similar based, that has a Viscosity and Cetane Index similar to red .... then it will work, but I wouldn't give much for your injectors over time !!! In fact a diesel engine will run on virtually anything that is compressable and creates Compression ignition in theory !!!! Essence of my old socks ????

The comments about ULSD ...... this will not I believe nbecome widespread across engine use - as it lacks Lubrication properties, has various additives in that are suited to high speed but not low speed use.
Red Diesel will be attacked, as it already has been -- note that EU 'others' such as France don't like us having full tanks on arrival in their ports etc., but Farmers and others depend on cheap Red fuel.

Finally - Red diesel has a property that many are not aware of - it has an Indicator additive that is detected by C&E ... so wash out your tank, change to correct Blue diesel and they still catch you !!!! It is NOT Red the indicator either !!!! I will let the C&E postees let you know what it is if they decide to release such information !!!!! I'll say that in Poland it is Red Dye with Yellow Indicator !!

So without knowing exactly which oil you have access to - its an area that I wish I hadn't been asked !!!!!!

 

[dickh]

Re: My answer !!

Hmm... I think you've answered all my questions in a full and lucid manner; basically, to be honest & use heating oil for house heating; City diesel in my car and Marine diesel in the boat... Pity... Could do with saving money on car diesel...

Another question, is Red farm/agricultural diesel the same as Marine diesel?

Is marine(Blue?) diesel taxed at the same rate as red diesel?


dickh
I'd rather be sailing...

 

[vyv_cox]

Petrol in diesel

Several truck operators in UK to my knowledge use petrol to prevent filter blockage. Volatility is rarely a problem, as UK cold snaps rarely last all that long. I'm sure you're right that it's a different matter in more northern climes. I recall a time in my camper when we could barely exceed 30 mph due to filter plugging. Putting half a gallon of petrol and a few gallons of diesel in completely cured it.

Not sure you're right about ULSB. Environmental pressures on governments are so high that they often make illogical decisions to appear to be doing the right thing. E.G.:
1. Sweden's decision to ban any aromatics in diesel caused major problems with sealing, only cured by adding an ester that was probably more harmful than the aromatics!
2. There's lots of evidence that the sub-micron carbon particles produced by "clean-burning" diesel is more harmful than the black clouds of micron-plus that used to be produced.
3. Eliminating lead from gasoline may not have been so environmentally beneficial as we were led to believe. The alternatives seem to be pretty unpleasant and the anti-lead warnings all fell a bit flat when it was found that the lead content of Egyptian mummies was higher than found in kids round spaghetti junction. It seems that lead in people and animals has almost nothing to do with gasoline.

 

[Guest]

Re: Petrol in diesel

Additives that reduce clouding and filter plugging are usually long chain polymers designed for molecular bonding. unlike Petrol that just mixes because it comes from same family !

Gasoline Lead reduction gave rise to the MTBE / ETBE use to increase the Octane and Oxygenates values. MTBE in the early stages were unknown as to effect on the atmosphere and 'people' - to an extent. The %age in gasoline can be over 12% at times ......
Now that Gasoline is becoming low profit margin for comapnies and MTBE etc. is too costly to use .... various companies are blending in cheap 'crap' components such as Pyrolisisgasolines etc. creating blends that defy all logic !!!! but certainly qwork. Pity that exhaust pipes are running hotter and burning away to nothing faster !

The whole subject of fuel blending and so on is so complex now that even for me running a Petrochemical Lab it becomes confusing and difficult to stay ahead of the game !!

I was given a sample by a leading well known Gasoline Co. not so long ago for testing for its 'use as commercial gasoline' ... actually to go in the pumps as 95E ... it was so 'smelly' and awful that I had to keep it downwind when walking to the lab !!!! Yes it worked and it went into the pumps !! I cannot for commercial reasons tell you what was in it ... but the actual base was only 35% actual true gasoline .....

Now I have heard a lot about what can be and what cannot be done with fuels .... believe me we are far away from the end of this subject !! And that is without the Alcohol based as well !!!!

Aromatics are only small account with Diesels so insignificant - what you should consider are Polyaromatics ..... but thats another matter .....

 

[Guest]

Grades ... I\'m NO expert !!

I canbnot answer about tax's as my work is the Former Soviet Union and not in UK ... my labs are in Latvia, estonia and Lithuania .... so a long way away from home base !!!!

But Generally Red diesel si the same as Farm stock, whether marine or other.

Blue Diesel si NOT marine, but our term for road diesel as you use in HGV's - cars etc.

Marine Diesel Oil , or MDO as we call it is another animal entirely and is really 'shitty black gasoil' for commercial ships engines / generators ... its about 3/4 way to good diesel from light fuel oil - is the best way to describe it !!!

Finally I am NO expert in this - I just work in it and hope to help others with the little I know ... and if I don't know I ask my lab people !!!

I tested a small phial of Red one time some years ago in my Latvian Lab and they said .... its better than Soviet Farm Diesel !! Whether that is a reccomendation I couldn't fathom !!!!

NL

 

[Bergman]

Re: My answer !!

I don't pretend to understand the technicalities, but in simple terms:

Will using heating oil in a modern marine diesel, Volvo, Yanmar etc. do any damage?

Is it really illegal to usin in a boat, VAT is charged at same rate for both?

Will adding a little parafin cure any cold temperature problems?

Thanks

 

[DepSol]

Re: Grades ... I\'m NO expert !!

Just for your info Soltron comes wrapped in Kerosene. Still willing to send you some if you want to try it.

Dom

I am boating again ;-)

 

[ean_p]

Re: Grades ... I\'m NO expert !!

have heared that Kerosene with 4% any cheap engine lube oil makes for a very cheap but very illegal road fuel in diesels.....as for that matter so does cooking oil......mmmm so where is the nearest trade warehouse.......

 

[chippie]

Re: Grades ... I\'m NO expert !!

I have seen videos of diesel vehicles in the pacific islands running on coconut oil derivitaves, and closer to home fuel made from rapeseed oil.

 

[hlb]

Whilst red diesel may well not have had smelly stuff added. It is just the same as goes into cars.It is just a prevention from tax fraud.. However you can get round this by buying Diesel in the chanel isles. Tax free Or go to southern Ireland and buy GREEN diesel. No law about that here. Only about RED. Beforem you ask. The boat runs the same on all of it.

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