Poignard
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It might be listed on Airbnb...
Fulmar & Twister Owners: Opinions please!
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Chiara’s slave
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Of course there are stand out examples. Boats that have stood the test of time. There’ll be modern ones like that too, in time to come. And I daresay some surprising ones. When they were new, nobody would have expected such fulsome praise for the relatively humble Westerly Fulmar, yet there it is. And from what I see, in a harbour dominated by classic designs, there are boats that cannot be reversed into a marina berth, yet some owners find a way. My home neighbour is passionate about wooden classics, can park one anywhere, yet recognises ownership is a disease he cannot find a cure forI agree. The reality is that there have been some stand out examples of excellent boat from the past. At the same time, there were some epic dogs.
Saying all new boats are bad and all old boats are good is a stupid as saying new boats are better. Better at what, needs to be factor in.
Long keel boat have been around longer than marinas. Not being able to reverse into a marina berth would not have been high on the designers list of attributes
Times change. Some people buy a boat and marina berth because it's cheaper than a holiday home by the sea
. I’ve been on board his 8m Fife design when he’s reversed down the fairway in Yarmouth on Taittinger weekend. It can be done. Old boats aren’t ‘bad’, just that design and materials have moved on. Boats are faster, have more room, are easier to sail, and survive with much less maintenance. And you epic round the world guys should remember just how much of a minority pursuit that is, when discussing boat attributes. Millions sail, less than 0.05% of them cross an ocean, I should think. A fair few more talk about it, OH and I have, on occasion, wondered if selling up and sailing was an option, but her rheumatoid arthritis put a stop to that before anything else did. Fact is, most people who buy ocean cruising boats would, in the end, be better off with an AWB as they’ll go no further than the Scilly Isles.
Concerto
Well-Known Member
When I was a lot younger, the first round the world race inspired me think I could do that. When I thought about the time and cost involved, I ruled it out. Then I dreamt about sailing across the Atlantic, again a fading dream. Work and life got in the way.
After retiring, I bought my Fulmar and started renovating it - still not quite finished after 11 years. My dream was to sail single handed round Britain, however it still needed a number of longer cruises to get the boat fully prepared. When I started my round Britain trip with the aim of going round the top of Shetland, many thought I was being optimistic, but soon realised my determination and offer encouragement. The trip was well documented with daily reports on progress (see them in my signature link). The preparation meant very few problems with the boat, virtually all were minor and quickly fixed.
The idea of the OP to go from dinghy sailing to long distance cruising is a massive step. Expecting to buy an old boat and be able to do this immediately is fraught with problems. Questions that need answers include:
Do you get sea sick.
Can you remain happy without regular contact with friends and family.
What are your navigational skills, especially without electronic equipment.
Do you scare easily and can you cope with breakages in rough weather.
I could easily add lots more questions, but the dream of cruising to distant shores is most likely to remain a dream rather than become reality. My dreams changed, like most other sailors. Many are quite content to sail from the Solent to France or the Channel Islands and think the can do more, but do not. There are posters in this thread like Geem and John Morris that I respect for their crossing the Atlantic, but very few of the posters in this thread have experience of the type of sailing intended by the OP. Discussions like this thread are more about dreams than reality.
After retiring, I bought my Fulmar and started renovating it - still not quite finished after 11 years. My dream was to sail single handed round Britain, however it still needed a number of longer cruises to get the boat fully prepared. When I started my round Britain trip with the aim of going round the top of Shetland, many thought I was being optimistic, but soon realised my determination and offer encouragement. The trip was well documented with daily reports on progress (see them in my signature link). The preparation meant very few problems with the boat, virtually all were minor and quickly fixed.
The idea of the OP to go from dinghy sailing to long distance cruising is a massive step. Expecting to buy an old boat and be able to do this immediately is fraught with problems. Questions that need answers include:
Do you get sea sick.
Can you remain happy without regular contact with friends and family.
What are your navigational skills, especially without electronic equipment.
Do you scare easily and can you cope with breakages in rough weather.
I could easily add lots more questions, but the dream of cruising to distant shores is most likely to remain a dream rather than become reality. My dreams changed, like most other sailors. Many are quite content to sail from the Solent to France or the Channel Islands and think the can do more, but do not. There are posters in this thread like Geem and John Morris that I respect for their crossing the Atlantic, but very few of the posters in this thread have experience of the type of sailing intended by the OP. Discussions like this thread are more about dreams than reality.
steve yates
Well-Known Member
The OP is 25, it would be a pretty unimaginative 25yr old who dreamt of buying a boat to sail across the channel!
Of course he want to sail across oceans and visit far flung lands, thats what sailing boats are for
So his boat choices make perfect sense.
Just because most of us do not shouldn’t diminish those dreams.
Crack on lad, get the 32 and get out there
Of course he want to sail across oceans and visit far flung lands, thats what sailing boats are for
So his boat choices make perfect sense.Just because most of us do not shouldn’t diminish those dreams.
Crack on lad, get the 32 and get out there
potentillaCO32
Well-Known Member
It's just a bit blurgh to me. If i wanted a boat around that price a bit more modern than a twister i would go for something more fun and prettier like a beneteau first 30 or an sj320
geem
Well-Known Member
I agree with some of that. Maintenance between a new 1980s boat and a new 2025 boat won't be any different. Probably less to do on the new 1980s boat as it had less. Things like rudder bearings being bronze not plastic, but generally pretty similar.Of course there are stand out examples. Boats that have stood the test of time. There’ll be modern ones like that too, in time to come. And I daresay some surprising ones. When they were new, nobody would have expected such fulsome praise for the relatively humble Westerly Fulmar, yet there it is. And from what I see, in a harbour dominated by classic designs, there are boats that cannot be reversed into a marina berth, yet some owners find a way. My home neighbour is passionate about wooden classics, can park one anywhere, yet recognises ownership is a disease he cannot find a cure for
Very few buy new bluewater boats as they are far more expensive than off the shelf production boats. An older 80s era boat will be cheaper than a 2000s era more modern designs. It comes down to budget for many people. For others, it's shaped by experience or just the desire to have a certain boat. Everybody's priorities differ. Some love to dream and never leave their home waters. Others buy what they can afford and just do it.
There is no doubt that some boats are more suitable than others. You may have to try it to realise what works best.
I have crewed on the Carriacou sloops a few times in Antigua classics. Long keel wooden boats built very traditionally. They are super fun to sail. If you want to get even more exstreme long keelers, look at the Bahamian sloops that race. That is crazy stuff and really exciting to watch.
Just because it's long keel doesn't make it boring. I would still rather cruise my deep draft fin and skeg cruiser though
Chiara’s slave
Well-Known Member
I mostly race long keeled boats. I own one. Wet, slow and very challenging to get the best out of her. I do that for fun. Mostly there’ll be 20 or 30 boats exactly the same to race against. It’s never boring.
geem
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Chiara’s slave
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Buck Turgidson
Well-Known Member
Yes of course.
So here are the principles for Holman yachts of the period. Can you spot the odd one out?
Code:
| Design | Year | LOA (ft / m) | LWL (ft / m) | Beam (ft / m) | Draft (ft / m) | Displacement |
|--------------------|------|--------------|--------------|---------------|----------------|---------------|
| North Sea 24 | 1963 | 31.0 / 9.45 | 24.0 / 7.32 | 9.0 / 2.74 | 5.6 / 1.70 | ≈12,900 lb / 5.85 t |
| Holman 27 (Twister)| 1963 | 27.8 / 8.46 | 21.0 / 6.40 | 8.1 / 2.46 | 5.3 / 1.60 | ≈9,900 lb / 4.5 t |
| Whiplash (No.55) | 1964 | 31.0 / 9.45 | 24.0 / 7.32 | — | 5.7 / 1.70 | — |
| Shaker (No.66) | 1964 | 33.8 / 10.33 | 24.0 / 7.32 | 9.0 / 2.74 | 5.8 / 1.78 | — |
| Rustler 31 | 1965 | 31.4 / 9.58 | 24.0 / 7.32 | 9.0 / 2.74 | 5.6 / 1.68 | 12,768 lb / 5.79 t |
| Northney 34 | 1967 | 34.0 / 10.36 | 24.0 / 7.32 | 9.1 / 2.77 | 5.6 / 1.68 | ≈6.5 t |
awol
Well-Known Member
Not convinced by 6.5 ton for the Northney, I thought they were heavier. For the last 20 or so years I, in a CO32, and some really lovely people in an N34 have done battle in some of the loveliest scenery in the planet. This year, for personal reasons, my boat wasn't available and I had the privilege of crewing on the N34 on a Round an Island race. My admiration for the lady skipper rose even higher and any idea of challenging her to arm wrestling would be stupid.
Buck Turgidson
Well-Known Member
Yes they do have that reputation.
My Twister is a plump old girl at 5.1T the last time she was craned out. I also have a weather helm problem as she has a 1meter taller than standard mast known as the "Med rig" Unfortunately the previous owner when specking the mainsail used all the available area and I have 200sq ft rather than the normal 160 ish. I reef the main very early.
Poignard
Well-Known Member
My composite Twister (standard rig) weighed 4.5 tons according to the crane driver at Emsworth Yacht Harbour.
Unfortunately I didn't record how much fresh water and fuel she had on board.
Buck Turgidson
Well-Known Member
I was so embarrassed I immediately swapped to a Lithium house battery and lost 45kg
I've just removed another 20kg of tools and junk and about 30 in the rubber dinghy that I haven't used for 4 years but it's getting harder to choose what else as I'm a long way from home if I suddenly need something.dunedin
Well-Known Member
The Fulmar is very far from being an “average white boat”.
And PotentillaCo32’s suggestion
Is equally far from the truth. Not least as I remember well the many sails in multiple Fulmars, which were usually fun and never scary.
The Fulmar is widely regarded as a classic boat of its era - transitioning from the older designs of the time into a much better boat for most people. It was an early design by the very talented Ed Dubois, who managed the magic trick of improving all of the performance, space, comforts and seaworthiness compared to previous generation Westerlies, some of which were already pretty good.
The wide use by sailing schools, as well as private owners, is a testament to their robustness and all weather ability.
In any list of transformational UK boats of the 20th Century the Westerly Fulmar is likely to feature - as would the Contessa 32 from the previous generation.
Whether the Twister would make the list is less clear cut. Not because it wasn’t a nice boat for its time. But rather, at that time there were so many builders building very similar designs. There were so many Folkboat inspired designs from 24-26 foot that might be selected (Folkboat itself, Contessa 26, Stella, SCOD etc). The Twister is an example of a slightly longer version of the same genre.
john_morris_uk
Well-Known Member
I agree with most of what you say. An interesting point that I’ve made in the past and consistently gets ignored is the way materials and available fastenings affect boat design.I agree. The reality is that there have been some stand out examples of excellent boat from the past. At the same time, there were some epic dogs.
Saying all new boats are bad and all old boats are good is a stupid as saying new boats are better. Better at what, needs to be factor in.
Long keel boat have been around longer than marinas. Not being able to reverse into a marina berth would not have been high on the designers list of attributes
Times change. Some people buy a boat and marina berth because it's cheaper than a holiday home by the sea
If your only material is wood then designing and building a boat with a long keel is a bit of a Hobson’s choice. It’s difficult to build it any other way. Centuries of boat and ship building takes us up to the 19C. We then get the beginnings of leisure sailing and the first ocean passages in yachts (initially thought impossible madness!) and some of the myths about long keels are born because GRP and modern glues and the possibility of fin keels hadn’t happened yet. If anyone argues that there are some excellent examples of long keeled boats (like the Twister) I’m not going to argue. However what I’m disappointed in is the OP (wherever he/she’s got to) swallowing the line from some sailing literature that somehow he’s going to be better off with a long keeled boat in some sort of extreme conditions he’s unlikely to ever be in.
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Poignard
Well-Known Member
The plot thickens. I would have removed the inflatable dinghy and outboard motor before craning out so that's about 40kg less than her weight afloat, also tinned food, booze, clothing &c. would have been taken off while she was on the pontoon waiting to be lifted out.I was so embarrassed I immediately swapped to a Lithium house battery and lost 45kg
Laminar Flow
Well-Known Member
I do strongly suggest looking at the numbers when comparing boats.
The really important ones are SA/D (sail area /displacement ratio) and D/L ratio (displacement/length)
SA/D is a good indicator of overall performance and D/L is an indicator of potential upper end speed (beyond what might be considered the "classical" barrier).
The Twister has a SA/D of 12.06, which is less than that recommended for a motorsailer (13-14)
The Fulmar has one of 16.19 which isn't exactly spectacular either when you consider that a (traditional) cruiser/racer might have one between 17 and 19.
The Twister has a D/L of 440, which by today's standards is monstrously heavy and quite likely will not encourage displacement speeds over 1,34.
The Westerly has one of 256, which is about midrange and will permit speeds in excess of the traditional hull speed.
There is absolutely no doubt that the Fulmar will be faster on all points of sail (no matter how competent the Twister's crew) and being 4' longer will, in spite of being relatively lighter, be the much bigger boat. By 50% actually, as volume increases to the third power.
Once again, we are comparing apples with oranges, with the usual "it's all in the keel" or not part thrown in. The Twister's lack of performance doesn't really have all that much to do with her keel, but with her comparatively dismal SA/D and the fact that her D/L naturally limits her potential beyond "classical" hull speed.
It is all together just too simplistic to point across the harbour at some poor, old tub with baggy sails and too little of that, next year's moules harvest on her bottom and claim it's all that damn keel.
Frictional resistance really only plays a role at low relative speeds and is easily overcome with a decent SA/D factor.
Yes, the Twister will have a more gentle motion at sea, the phenomena is called water plane loading, something that apparently is not much understood nowadays.
I agree that the likelihood of either vessel encountering survival conditions while cruising Northern Europe is improbable, least not with the current forecast windows. We have made multiple North and Irish sea crossings, cruised Shetland and Orkney twice, Norway as well and have always made it in before the door closes, regardless of our apparently crippling handicap of having a long keel.
The really important ones are SA/D (sail area /displacement ratio) and D/L ratio (displacement/length)
SA/D is a good indicator of overall performance and D/L is an indicator of potential upper end speed (beyond what might be considered the "classical" barrier).
The Twister has a SA/D of 12.06, which is less than that recommended for a motorsailer (13-14)
The Fulmar has one of 16.19 which isn't exactly spectacular either when you consider that a (traditional) cruiser/racer might have one between 17 and 19.
The Twister has a D/L of 440, which by today's standards is monstrously heavy and quite likely will not encourage displacement speeds over 1,34.
The Westerly has one of 256, which is about midrange and will permit speeds in excess of the traditional hull speed.
There is absolutely no doubt that the Fulmar will be faster on all points of sail (no matter how competent the Twister's crew) and being 4' longer will, in spite of being relatively lighter, be the much bigger boat. By 50% actually, as volume increases to the third power.
Once again, we are comparing apples with oranges, with the usual "it's all in the keel" or not part thrown in. The Twister's lack of performance doesn't really have all that much to do with her keel, but with her comparatively dismal SA/D and the fact that her D/L naturally limits her potential beyond "classical" hull speed.
It is all together just too simplistic to point across the harbour at some poor, old tub with baggy sails and too little of that, next year's moules harvest on her bottom and claim it's all that damn keel.
Frictional resistance really only plays a role at low relative speeds and is easily overcome with a decent SA/D factor.
Yes, the Twister will have a more gentle motion at sea, the phenomena is called water plane loading, something that apparently is not much understood nowadays.
I agree that the likelihood of either vessel encountering survival conditions while cruising Northern Europe is improbable, least not with the current forecast windows. We have made multiple North and Irish sea crossings, cruised Shetland and Orkney twice, Norway as well and have always made it in before the door closes, regardless of our apparently crippling handicap of having a long keel.
Concerto
Well-Known Member
In post #57 I suggested the Northney 34 as an alternative to the Twister following a comment by the OP. It was made as I thought it would be more suitable than a Twister if the OP wanted a long keel. From my experience of having sailed on a Twister, Northney 34 and a Fulmar, this is the order I would place them as being least suitable for the OP. How many other forum members can offer the same experience for he same boats?
Unfortunately the thread deviation, mainly by Buck Turgidson and Poignard, shows their more blinkered and biased view of the Twister. Most posters have tried to give a balanced view for the OP. I know I have tried to add many points for the OP to consider. We should not be arguing amongst ourselves on finer points, but trying to help the OP to make a wise decision. There is no perfect answer as older secondhand boats can vary in condition so much. Perhaps we should direct him to a boat that has already done extensive cruising as it would be better equipped for offshore sailing than a boat that has been used for coastal cruising.
Unfortunately the thread deviation, mainly by Buck Turgidson and Poignard, shows their more blinkered and biased view of the Twister. Most posters have tried to give a balanced view for the OP. I know I have tried to add many points for the OP to consider. We should not be arguing amongst ourselves on finer points, but trying to help the OP to make a wise decision. There is no perfect answer as older secondhand boats can vary in condition so much. Perhaps we should direct him to a boat that has already done extensive cruising as it would be better equipped for offshore sailing than a boat that has been used for coastal cruising.
Buck Turgidson
Well-Known Member
Has anyone claimed a Twister is faster?
A Quick Look a a few RTIR results shows that in those races there isn't that much in it when you consider how different the two designs are.
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