Fully battened mainsail

[Daydream believer]

Another disadvantage of a FB main is that usually you need a 'backstay flicker' to ensure the backstay clears the extended roach on an FB main - which I'd have thought means you can't tune the mast using the backstay. Conversely you get more roach with an FB.

- just thought I'd mention it.

You do not HAVE to have a highly extended roach with a fully battened mainsail & I see most yachts who cope quite well without such contraptions. I think the term " usually" is a bit over the top. However, I do admit that I have seen quite a few of them on some of the smaller lighter French race boats & possibly they are used on a few smaller UK race boats as well. But for cruising boats ?????

There have been some comments about having to flick the battens across in light airs. The battens are not there to form the basic shape of the sail ( Roach & fat head accepted) & need not be over tightened such that this is a problem. I would suggest that over tightening is probably unwise, especially if the sail is left in such a condition.

 

[grumpy_o_g]

Getting all serious again, the issue for me wouldn't be so much about extra drive per se as the ability to get decent drive at lower wind strengths and a better ability to point, reducing VMG to windward. Basically you're looking at the ability to control the shape of the sails better. Full battens on their own may not help that much with that but, in conjunction with other controls, they could bring big benefits. Are there other boats in the same class that zoidberg can look at to see what they've done? I think a conversation with a few good sailmakers is the best way forward personally. If you have full battens but not the ability to flatten the mainsail you could end up with little advantage for example.

 

[dom]

Another disadvantage of a FB main is that usually you need a 'backstay flicker' to ensure the backstay clears the extended roach on an FB main - which I'd have thought means you can't tune the mast using the backstay. Conversely you get more roach with an FB.

- just thought I'd mention it.

This really only apples to quite a specialist racing set ups and would rarely be found on the rigs under discussion here, especially not on masthead rigs!

And you’re right, a backstay flicker serves basically no function when the backstay is under tension.

 

[Daydream believer]

Deleted due to total brain fade
Sorry

 

[zoidberg]

Having only anchored my hanse 311 --5 times in 18 years I think it can be taken that i do NOT anchor. My set up is a CQR with 10 M of 6mm chain & 30 M of 20 mm 3 strand nylon rope. I thought snubbers were about 2ft long. Not having an anchor winch I did use the chain hook to catch the chain & run a rope to the sheet winch to break the anchor free once I could get it in enough.

Having read this thread I am amazed at the use of such long snubbers. I have a river mooring for my Squib & have put my Hanse on it for very short periods when the marina has been inaccessible. I have watched my boat do 360 degree circles in F4 so the thought of 10 M of snubber round the keel would frighten me to death. I do know that it rides over the anchor rode all the time.

So I have a question

Where in all this discussion about elasticity does the catinery of the rode come in & what about the addition of a chum along the line. Does that not have any effect? Or is it something for small yachts only. In my 26ft Stella I had 2 No 56 lb racing weights below the mast & if I had to leave the boat anchored for a couple of days, I would slip them down the line. Was that a waste of time? Does that not substitute snubbers. Or are those posting only discussing long distance blue water sailing, which is not applicable to the majority of the forum-- although still of interest I might add

Dear 'well known member', are you quite certain you intended your latest post ( above ) to appear in this thread?

 

[Tranona]

Having only anchored my hanse 311 --5 times in 18 years I think it can be taken that i do NOT anchor. My set up is a CQR with 10 M of 6mm chain & 30 M of 20 mm 3 strand nylon rope. I thought snubbers were about 2ft long. Not having an anchor winch I did use the chain hook to catch the chain & run a rope to the sheet winch to break the anchor free once I could get it in enough.

Having read this thread I am amazed at the use of such long snubbers. I have a river mooring for my Squib & have put my Hanse on it for very short periods when the marina has been inaccessible. I have watched my boat do 360 degree circles in F4 so the thought of 10 M of snubber round the keel would frighten me to death. I do know that it rides over the anchor rode all the time.

So I have a question

Where in all this discussion about elasticity does the catinery of the rode come in & what about the addition of a chum along the line. Does that not have any effect? Or is it something for small yachts only. In my 26ft Stella I had 2 No 56 lb racing weights below the mast & if I had to leave the boat anchored for a couple of days, I would slip them down the line. Was that a waste of time? Does that not substitute snubbers. Or are those posting only discussing long distance blue water sailing, which is not applicable to the majority of the forum-- although still of interest I might add

Guess you meant this to be on the "snubber" thread. If so you are really late to the party - not just this thread as the subject as been done to death over the years. Like most subjects there are different points of view, but I guess if you have only anchored 5 times in 18 years it is probably best you remain in blissful ignorance. Those of who anchor a lot have come to our own conclusions and act upon them, whilst of course listening to and maybe learning from the views of others.

 

[Daydream believer]

Dear 'well known member', are you quite certain you intended your latest post ( above ) to appear in this thread?

OH NO !!!!
I have done it again
Yesterday I posted a thread in the my Hanse forum that did not even belong on that forum
What on earth has happened??
I have been really ill for the last 2 days & tomorrow the wife is dragging me off for a covid test
All made worse by having a major tooth pulled & an excess of pain killers
Apologies everyone

 

[Daydream believer]

Guess you meant this to be on the "snubber" thread. If so you are really late to the party - not just this thread as the subject as been done to death over the years. Like most subjects there are different points of view, but I guess if you have only anchored 5 times in 18 years it is probably best you remain in blissful ignorance. Those of who anchor a lot have come to our own conclusions and act upon them, whilst of course listening to and maybe learning from the views of others.

Sorry
see apology post #67
Major brain fade

 

[Tranona]

Thats OK even the best of us suffer at some time in our lives - for me more frequently as I get older.

Best keeping away from "discussions" on catenary anyway.

 

[zoidberg]

My dear DDBeliever, I don't mind. I like hearing from you. No, really....

And the anchoring threads have been running so long, so repetitively, that I must have forgotten most of them by now. Maybe it's time to consider an 'All Our Yesterdays' re-release.

Or maybe it's just my '3 As'.... Age, Alcoholism, and Alzheimers.

 

[Neeves]

What an interesting thread - so polite and full of refreshing surprises.

I'll visit here more often - all very educational.

And daydream - I hope you get over your brain fade - I too enjoy your posts - so 'carry on'. How on earth have you managed to only anchor 3 times in 18 years - that must be a record.


But keeping on theme

We don't have a vang nor any support for the boom - other than the main, the lazy jacks and the topping lift. Originally we had no topping lift either. The lazy jacks are not really man enough to support the boom, when reefing, and thus demanded installation of the topping lift. We need the topping lift to ensure the boom clears anything on the targa (its a catamaran) so the topping lift is adjusted such that the boom does not sweep everything off the targa. This results in the topping lift being slack, but only just when the main is fully raised - and the full length battens can get caught on the wrong side of the topping lift - care thus needs to be taken when raising the main - easy normally but a major issue when shaking out reefs in a lumpy sea. The answer would be to slacken the topping lift - the danger being forgetting to re-adjust and then losing the GPS, the spare GPS, the helm station, the TV aerial and maybe the head of anyone at the helm.

When we commissioned I simply could not entertain the idea of attaching a trisail - so our 3 rd reef reduces the size of the main to 25% of full - and this has worked - so far.

We don't have batten cars but the cheap version - simply slugs - and this works fine. We need a new main - and we will use the same system, but maybe a bigger roach.

Take care, stay safe,

Jonathan

 

[dunedin]

When we commissioned I simply could not entertain the idea of attaching a trisail - so our 3 rd reef reduces the size of the main to 25% of full - and this has worked - so far.

I believe Skip Novak is on record saying he does not believe in trysails, but recommends a 4th reef instead - so similar to your approach. His view was that by the time you need to move from reef 3 to consider a try sail, it is too dangerous to mess around on deck.

But what would Skip N know about severe weather - only spent most of the past few decades leading sailing voyages round Cape Horn, the Southern Oceans, Wedddel Sea, South Georgia etc.

 

[awol]

I believe Skip Novak is on record saying he does not believe in trysails, but recommends a 4th reef instead - so similar to your approach. His view was that by the time you need to move from reef 3 to consider a try sail, it is too dangerous to mess around on deck.

But what would Skip N know about severe weather - only spent most of the past few decades leading sailing voyages round Cape Horn, the Southern Oceans, Wedddel Sea, South Georgia etc.

Yeah, fine - but what's his take on lazy jacks and scatter cushions?

 

[Stemar]

Skip N ... spent most of the past few decades leading sailing voyages round Cape Horn, the Southern Oceans, Wedddel Sea, South Georgia etc.

Yeah, fine - but what's his take on ... scatter cushions?

I imagine he'd say they scatter very satisfactorily in those waters

 

[zoidberg]

But what would Skip N know about severe weather - only spent most of the past few decades leading sailing voyages round Cape Horn, the Southern Oceans, Wedddel Sea, South Georgia etc.

'Quick! Reef the geraniums....!"

 

[Neeves]

Novak's issues are similar to ours, except his main is much bigger.

In order to attach a tri sail you need to get up on top of that reinforced helm station, tame the main, it would be difficult to take off, and attach the tri sail. The roof off the helm station is a long way off the nominal sea level - you would feel immensely vulnerable. The boom ends would be quite a stretch. A 4th reef seems much more sensible. Its surprising that they are not more common. We often use our 3rd reef and in fact seldom use the first - we go straight to the second reef.

Novak is much more concerned with ground tackle - look at those shore lines cluttering the deck.

Interestingly he has no anchor on the bow roller - not sure where he stores it but it must be a real beast to ready to anchor.



Pelagic in Port Stanley

Some slight drift here, apologies.

Take care, stay safe

 

[zoidberg]

Novak's issues are similar to ours, except his main is much bigger..... In order to attach a tri sail you need to get up on top of that reinforced helm station, tame the main, it would be difficult to take off, and attach the tri sail..... Novak is much more concerned with ground tackle - look at those shore lines cluttering the deck.

Interestingly he has no anchor on the bow roller - not sure where he stores it but it must be a real beast to ready to anchor.

There's interesting info in here. Note at 1:40secs he mentions he has a 105lb CQR on the bow..... "Get proper heavy gear".....

In another of his videos one sees that big anchor being 'got aboard by use of a halyard. There are many ways for handling heavy anchor gear, all invented by working seamen. It's worth knowing a handful of such 'outdated' techniques - situations occur when one or other of those 'antiquated' ideas comes in handy.

 

[Neeves]

There's interesting info in here. Note at 1:40secs he mentions he has a 105lb CQR on the bow..... "Get proper heavy gear".....

In another of his videos one sees that big anchor being 'got aboard by use of a halyard. There are many ways for handling heavy anchor gear, all invented by working seamen. It's worth knowing a handful of such 'outdated' techniques - situations occur when one or other of those 'antiquated' ideas comes in handy.

Thanks Zoidberg

Rumour has it that he updated his anchor to a Rocna, don't know what size. Considering the size of the yacht I would not consider 105lb 'heavy' - but in terms of one man (or woman) a halyard is the way to go.

Clipper yachts carry a 40kg and a 20kg Delta anchor, they are stored in the forepeak (with the spare sails) with 17m of 12mm chain (that's 55kg of chain) + 62m of 18mm octaplait and 17m of 10mm chain + 62m of 18mm octaplait. Part of the induction programme for crew is removal of the anchor(s) from the forepeak using a halyard. A Delta is easier to handle than a CQR, or Fortress - it does not have that finger crushing hinge. I saw a vid (don't have a link) where a Volvo yacht deployed their anchor (FX85 - they carry 2) using the boom end to deploy. The whole Volvo fleet anchored to stem a tide on crossing Storm Bay after leaving Cape Town and 2 Imoca 60's have anchored (FX55) at Auckland Island (nowhere near, or not really near Auckland, in the Southern Ocean). Deploying an anchor from an Imoca - single handed - must be quite a challenge (especially as they have no bow roller but a sprit with a little bob-stay). One of the Imoca's cut through his rode overnight, deployed the second Fortress and on leaving simply cut the rode - abandoning 2 Fortress. If you ever need one - there are thus 2 in Sandy Bay.

Sorry about the drift again - but there is little point in hiding these. little snippets - I prefer to share, knowledge is of little use if kept a secret.

Jonathan

 

[zoidberg]

The whole Volvo fleet anchored to stem a tide on crossing Storm Bay after leaving Cape Town .... One of the Imoca's cut through his rode overnight, deployed the second Fortress and on leaving simply cut the rode - abandoning 2 Fortress. If you ever need one - there are thus 2 in Sandy Bay.

Jon, you know I'm persuaded....

But Storm Bay, in Tassie, is one l-o-o-ng way from Cape Town.

Now 'Sandy Bay', south of Cape Town, is one of the Cape Province's finest beaches. It is secluded and not easy of access. It's also a very chilled nudist beach.... and 'chilled' is the right word, for the sea temperature is usually down around 4C while the summer air temp in the afternoon is usually well above 30C.

Maybe the Imocas went there for the bird-watching. There are lots of penguins.....

 

[Neeves]

Jon, you know I'm persuaded....

But Storm Bay, in Tassie, is one l-o-o-ng way from Cape Town.

Now 'Sandy Bay', south of Cape Town, is one of the Cape Province's finest beaches. It is secluded and not easy of access. It's also a very chilled nudist beach.... and 'chilled' is the right word, for the sea temperature is usually down around 4C while the summer air temp in the afternoon is usually well above 30C.

Maybe the Imocas went there for the bird-watching. There are lots of penguins.....

I confess my knowledge of Cape Town is almost zero and my memory of the name of the location where the Volvo fleet anchored is ..... hazy - Jack Lloyd, who was Race Director of the subsequent race told me of the flock anchoring en masse and location - and - I never thought it would be too important (so have obviously forgotten, and got it wrong)

Suffice to say - I should have said 'the Volvo fleet anchored soon after leaving Cape Town to stem an adverse tide'. I should stop trying to be clever - and just leave it simple.

My point was - racing yachts do use their anchors (though I never heard of the Clipper fleet anchoring) and the anchors do work.

I've forgotten now how we went from battens to anchors...........but I'm sure there is a connection......

Jonathan