Fergus
New member
Interesting design - unstayed rig. Does anyone have experience sailing one? Wonder why the design didn't catch on?
Freedom Yacht anyone
- Thread starter Fergus
- Start date
photodog
Lord High Commander of Upper Broughton and Gunthor
unstayed rig= unnatural.
Twister_Ken
Well-known member
"Wonder why the design didn't catch on?"
It did. On Toppers. On Lasers. On Finns. On sailboards.
Otherwise, put it down to the innate conservatism of cruising sailors, and the need for offshore racers to have lots of sails and strings and things to play with.
It did. On Toppers. On Lasers. On Finns. On sailboards.
Otherwise, put it down to the innate conservatism of cruising sailors, and the need for offshore racers to have lots of sails and strings and things to play with.
Last edited:
Carbon fibre masts UV degrade and need to be replaced.
The fat dimensions of the mast intrude into the layout down below.
bilbobaggins
N/A
Most yotties are quite conservative. P'rhaps that's why the Bermudan rig - which is quite a long way from the most efficient, on any point of sail - still exists in tens of thousands.
There's a Freedom for sale, in the yard, at Weir Quay. Around £40k, if memory serves.
There's a Freedom for sale, in the yard, at Weir Quay. Around £40k, if memory serves.
David_Jersey
New member
I think it was ahead of it's time for market acceptance, folk being a lot more conservative than nowadays on new materials (carbon fibre masts ) whereas now folk are quite happy to buy boats made from the marine version of veneered MDF
Modern marketing would have helped - after all I see from this months YM that their is a very desirable / prestige sailing boat for sale at £250k with a very nice single head - that can only be used on one tack For a 1/4 of a mill????
Marketing is often the price of progress
) whereas now folk are quite happy to buy boats made from the marine version of veneered MDF Modern marketing would have helped - after all I see from this months YM that their is a very desirable / prestige sailing boat for sale at £250k with a very nice single head - that can only be used on one tack
For a 1/4 of a mill????Marketing is often the price of progress
AntarcticPilot
Well-known member
Single point of failure at the highly stressed junction between mast and deck is my reason. The conventional style of rigging has much lower stresses, and spreads the loads over a larger part of the structure of the vessel. Even with modern composites (with possibly limited life-spans), the materials must be very highly loaded. You can probably lift your boat by one of the shrouds!
boggybrn
New member
There were two Freedom yachts at the Junk Rig Warsash rally earlier this summer. Both had been converted to jumk rig, and both seemed to go pretty quickly for cruising boats.
However... on one boat one of the carbon fibre masts snapped in what was only F4 at most. Presumably it had been damaged in some way earlier and this is when it chose to let go.
However... on one boat one of the carbon fibre masts snapped in what was only F4 at most. Presumably it had been damaged in some way earlier and this is when it chose to let go.
wotayottie
New member
I sail a Freedom 39 quite frequently so I guess I have some practical knowledge of the rig. The one I sail is a schooner with conventional mast track and booms rather than wishbone booms and sleeve type sails. The carbon masts are as tough as old boots and dont degrade with UV since they are painted with twin pack poly.
The boat is very definitely a cruiser and doesnt point to wind better than about 40 deg. Tacking obviously is a doddle with no foresail. Going down wind you have two sails to worry about jibing and the forward mast is right in the bow so a special jibe control is needed. Sail area gives decent downwind performance.
One minor advantages of the unstayed rig is the absence of wind noise. If, like me, you are no hero one of the worst things about heavy weather is wind howl. As against that there isnt much to hold onto moving about the deck.
Would I have one? The answer is no, but thats because I want the sort of boat that performs well round the cans. And if I went long term cruising again I would always chose a cat. So personally I dont see much use for a heavy cruising mono.
The boat is very definitely a cruiser and doesnt point to wind better than about 40 deg. Tacking obviously is a doddle with no foresail. Going down wind you have two sails to worry about jibing and the forward mast is right in the bow so a special jibe control is needed. Sail area gives decent downwind performance.
One minor advantages of the unstayed rig is the absence of wind noise. If, like me, you are no hero one of the worst things about heavy weather is wind howl. As against that there isnt much to hold onto moving about the deck.
Would I have one? The answer is no, but thats because I want the sort of boat that performs well round the cans. And if I went long term cruising again I would always chose a cat. So personally I dont see much use for a heavy cruising mono.
Norman_E
Well-known member
I know the owner of a Freedom 35, she is a lady of certain years, who sails it single handed, and goes further in it than most well crewed cruisers.
To me it seems a bit cramped below, but then I am used to a larger modern boat. As far as I can tell it is a very good design for short handed sailing, with an easily handled twin sail wishbone rig. As for stress on the mast base, I reckon an Aerorig puts a lot more strain there.
To me it seems a bit cramped below, but then I am used to a larger modern boat. As far as I can tell it is a very good design for short handed sailing, with an easily handled twin sail wishbone rig. As for stress on the mast base, I reckon an Aerorig puts a lot more strain there.
freedom44
New member
Freedom Yachts
As you can guess, I am biased. Great cruising boat.Mine has two fully battened sails on conventional booms which was a later evolvement from the wrap around wishbone rigs.
Masts have a "mud coat" covering the carbon and then awlgrip, so UV not a problem. They are designed to flex upto 1 mtr. Obviously in any blow the fully reefed sail only reaches about 1/3rd up the mast, which reduces any flexing, so well within this design limit.
. Where it is very useful is in ordinary sailing conditions as you can keep more sail on as if a gust happens, the top of the mast "bends" away and thus spills some of the effort which would otherwise be translated in a conventionally rigged boat into excessive healing.
Freedom owners like to compare the advanced design of the Freedom rig to those of airplanes. You dont see many with wires holding up the wings!
The quality of the build is impressive and I have no qualms regarding the deck support through which the mast pass through. They were designed to take the loads. Surprisingly the 44 is quite light. The design weight is 10 tons, probably nearer 12 when tanked up for cruising.
Where it really comes into its own is when sailing shorthanded as tacking is a doddle. Only the main needs a winch when close hauled, otherwise both sails can be trimmed by hand. Not bad for 840sq ft. Non of that genoa grunting here!
HOW DOES SHE GO TO WINDWARD?
This is a common question after someone has made sufficiently appreciative noises about the boat that they think they can now ask the slightly pointed question which they have been dying to ask from the beginning.
To be truthful, it is OK. It is not up to a modern fast cruiser but is quite acceptable. I have “raced” against others and hard on the wind she achieves a similar track to a cruising ketch of her age.
But where the fun starts, is anything slightly off the wind. Here the combination of the unstayed masts and sea kindly hull shape ensures a fast and extremely dry ride. The sails have an extensive roach which makes her very powerful but at the same time, not threatening. Because of the give in the masts, she can carry full sail in conditions where others are reefing.
She also can carry a very large mizzen staysail, which makes her invincible in the right conditions : we won with 2 crew, a local cross channel race with about 50 entrants, much to the disgust of the second place, a brand new Dufor 40 in full racing trim and hairy arsed crew. Very satisfying!
.
Internally the dimensions are less than more modern boats of a similar length, but still very comfortable. This shape translates into a very sea kindly hull which is comfortable in all but the most horrid conditions, which we try to miss anyway.
There were only 26 44 footers built in America, and they are therefore rare in Europe. The 39 pilothouse is popular over here. The 35 is underrated and you can pick them up cheaply and they offer a lot of boat for your money.
If i could only work out how to post photos I would put some up to prove my point that they are great boats!
As you can guess, I am biased. Great cruising boat.Mine has two fully battened sails on conventional booms which was a later evolvement from the wrap around wishbone rigs.
Masts have a "mud coat" covering the carbon and then awlgrip, so UV not a problem. They are designed to flex upto 1 mtr. Obviously in any blow the fully reefed sail only reaches about 1/3rd up the mast, which reduces any flexing, so well within this design limit.
. Where it is very useful is in ordinary sailing conditions as you can keep more sail on as if a gust happens, the top of the mast "bends" away and thus spills some of the effort which would otherwise be translated in a conventionally rigged boat into excessive healing.
Freedom owners like to compare the advanced design of the Freedom rig to those of airplanes. You dont see many with wires holding up the wings!
The quality of the build is impressive and I have no qualms regarding the deck support through which the mast pass through. They were designed to take the loads. Surprisingly the 44 is quite light. The design weight is 10 tons, probably nearer 12 when tanked up for cruising.
Where it really comes into its own is when sailing shorthanded as tacking is a doddle. Only the main needs a winch when close hauled, otherwise both sails can be trimmed by hand. Not bad for 840sq ft. Non of that genoa grunting here!
HOW DOES SHE GO TO WINDWARD?
This is a common question after someone has made sufficiently appreciative noises about the boat that they think they can now ask the slightly pointed question which they have been dying to ask from the beginning.
To be truthful, it is OK. It is not up to a modern fast cruiser but is quite acceptable. I have “raced” against others and hard on the wind she achieves a similar track to a cruising ketch of her age.
But where the fun starts, is anything slightly off the wind. Here the combination of the unstayed masts and sea kindly hull shape ensures a fast and extremely dry ride. The sails have an extensive roach which makes her very powerful but at the same time, not threatening. Because of the give in the masts, she can carry full sail in conditions where others are reefing.
She also can carry a very large mizzen staysail, which makes her invincible in the right conditions : we won with 2 crew, a local cross channel race with about 50 entrants, much to the disgust of the second place, a brand new Dufor 40 in full racing trim and hairy arsed crew. Very satisfying!
.
Internally the dimensions are less than more modern boats of a similar length, but still very comfortable. This shape translates into a very sea kindly hull which is comfortable in all but the most horrid conditions, which we try to miss anyway.
There were only 26 44 footers built in America, and they are therefore rare in Europe. The 39 pilothouse is popular over here. The 35 is underrated and you can pick them up cheaply and they offer a lot of boat for your money.
If i could only work out how to post photos I would put some up to prove my point that they are great boats!
HoratioHB
New member
Sailed my mates 39 quite a bit and great off the wind but as soon as you tried to point the mast bend affected sail shape and pointing was not good. For some reason my wife always threw up on board yet she managed 2 years on my Jeanneau and never felt sick. Oh and if a boat is rafted outboard of you wait for the large thump in the middle of the night as the drunks come back and reach for your stays as they clamber over you - except you haven't got any!!!!
Mind you there was this quick on in this years Bequia easter regatta who won his division and had all sorts of go faster kit - between mast spinnakers, tiny jibs etc so they can work.
Mind you there was this quick on in this years Bequia easter regatta who won his division and had all sorts of go faster kit - between mast spinnakers, tiny jibs etc so they can work.
Last edited:
PaulR
Active member
we owned a freedom 35 centerboard version for several years with the wishbone rig- the carbon masts were great but some older ones used to have alloy masts which are not as good from what i hear and have been known to break - performance wise - as a 35' cruiser overall good - offwind superb - hard on the wind kept up with similar sized boats in general - one well known and well sailed f35 used to claim that compared to the then popular sigma 33 (and bear in mind the freedom 35 was only 33 plus a bowsprit) he could be mid fleet upwind and romp all over them downwind
for us we found the accom good - great forecabin and very useable twin berth aft cabin - ability to dry out with legs great and we liked the individuality of the boat compared to AWB (including our current one)
the negatives
saloon is cosy with all seating arranged on one side of centreboard case
wheel can be heavy - bluntly for us too heavy
hoisting sails was hard work but once up effortless
manouvering under power in tight areas could be challenging - they are not like fin and spade modern boats !!
for us we found the accom good - great forecabin and very useable twin berth aft cabin - ability to dry out with legs great and we liked the individuality of the boat compared to AWB (including our current one)
the negatives
saloon is cosy with all seating arranged on one side of centreboard case
wheel can be heavy - bluntly for us too heavy
hoisting sails was hard work but once up effortless
manouvering under power in tight areas could be challenging - they are not like fin and spade modern boats !!
phantomlady
Member
Our mate has a Freedom 40. Sails like a pig - cant hardly go to windward. Steerings very 'wooly' too.
Twister_Ken
Well-known member
Sails like a pig and the steering is woolly? Sounds like you're mixing up animals.
fishermantwo
Active member
Sounds looks poor quality sails. Check out Finns, carbon fire masts, low profile shallow centre boards, yet go to windward superbly. Just sailed differently, can't just transfer your Bermudan rig prejudices to a cat rigged vessel and expect it to work.
maxi
Member
Freedom Yachts re Fergus
You have highlighted one of the weaknesses of this otherwise excellent forum; you tend to get lots of uninformed opinions and often, too little fact.
And with a couple of exceptions, most of your Freedom responses are uninformed and consequently misleading.
If you want some 'sensible' information re Freedoms and the 35 in particular, send a post to JOHNOO, he and I have raced one extensively and can claim knowledge as opposed to mere opinion.
You have highlighted one of the weaknesses of this otherwise excellent forum; you tend to get lots of uninformed opinions and often, too little fact.
And with a couple of exceptions, most of your Freedom responses are uninformed and consequently misleading.
If you want some 'sensible' information re Freedoms and the 35 in particular, send a post to JOHNOO, he and I have raced one extensively and can claim knowledge as opposed to mere opinion.
flaming
Well-known member
I'm intrigued - what's more efficient than a bermudian sloop (esp if fractional) to windward?
richardgooderick
New member
I love my Freedom 25 and wouldn't swap it for any other boat at around the same price.
Her main weakness is that she's not great hard on the wind, particularly in light airs. But crack her off slightly and hoist the multipurpose genoa and she is outperforming much larger boats. Come further off the wind, raise the spinnaker and it can be embarrassing. I have literally sailed past boats and have had friends say that they must surely be anchored.
Her strengths are:
- big comfortable cockpit
- goes like a rocket off the wind
- hydraulic keel pumps up so that you can run her up the beach and step off the bow for bbqs
- four 6'6" berths in two cabins
- gunmount spinnaker system allows you to hoist, gybe and drop from the cockpit
- single line reefing means you can reef easily from the cockpit too
- easily singlehanded eg no winching when tacking, so great for taking non-sailing friends out for a weekend
- dries out using her legs
She combines many of the best attributes of a dinghy and a yacht eg we often keep the spinnaker up until the last minute, drop it and pick the mooring up under sail.
She is my ideal boat for knocking around the Solent.
There are only half a dozen Freedom 25s in the UK. In the USA I believe they built getting on for four hundred.
ps I corrected a mistake. It should have been 'hoist, gybe and drop' not 'hoist, gybe and tack'.
However, if you feel like it, you can tack this boat with the spinnaker up. Now that is unique, isn't it
Her main weakness is that she's not great hard on the wind, particularly in light airs. But crack her off slightly and hoist the multipurpose genoa and she is outperforming much larger boats. Come further off the wind, raise the spinnaker and it can be embarrassing. I have literally sailed past boats and have had friends say that they must surely be anchored.
Her strengths are:
- big comfortable cockpit
- goes like a rocket off the wind
- hydraulic keel pumps up so that you can run her up the beach and step off the bow for bbqs
- four 6'6" berths in two cabins
- gunmount spinnaker system allows you to hoist, gybe and drop from the cockpit
- single line reefing means you can reef easily from the cockpit too
- easily singlehanded eg no winching when tacking, so great for taking non-sailing friends out for a weekend
- dries out using her legs
She combines many of the best attributes of a dinghy and a yacht eg we often keep the spinnaker up until the last minute, drop it and pick the mooring up under sail.
She is my ideal boat for knocking around the Solent.
There are only half a dozen Freedom 25s in the UK. In the USA I believe they built getting on for four hundred.
ps I corrected a mistake. It should have been 'hoist, gybe and drop' not 'hoist, gybe and tack'.
However, if you feel like it, you can tack this boat with the spinnaker up. Now that is unique, isn't it
Last edited:
pmyatt
New member
They probably didn't catch on because they were a radical design with an expensive carbon fibre mast, and were not built in big enough numbers by Freedom Yachts in the USA. Freedom yachts openly admitted that they had stopped building them and switched to motor vessels as there was more profit. Additionally, roller-reefing improved dramatically, both for foresails and mains. We have had 2, a Freedom 30 (really a 28 but with an anchor platform) and a Freedom 38 (again really a 36 but with a sugar scoop stern added to the original design). The 30 featured the twin masts with wishbone rig, and the 38, which we still have, has a single mast with conventional boom, FB mainsail and small self-tacking jib. As other posters have said, they go to windward as well as any other cruising boat (but what gentleman goes to windward) and downwind they will eat anything of similar size which doesn't have a racing crew and racing sails. Would we have another - of course - would love to get the Freedom 45.
