Fools and Twats on the water

[cagey]

I hate legislation but the more I see on the water convinces me a Licence demonstrating a minimum standard of competence is essential.
Col regs would be a start, Day Skipper type exam maybe, just the minimum so that everyone is aware that there is a set of rules out there to protect everyone.
I have no idea how to police such an idea but perhaps Insurers, Harbour Commissioners, Charter and Hire Companies, Boatyards, Marinas and Yacht Clubs have the duty to to not accept non licence holders as members or customers. Haven't explored the weaknesses in how to control licences but perhaps RYA could make a fund raising model out of the current situation.
I know the knee jerk reactions to this idea, because I feel the same, but imagine you had to make a risk assessment to HSE if this situuation existed at work

 

[Bodach na mara]

And the more stupidity I see on the roads, all committed by drivers holding a licence, makes me realise that tests and licences are just ways of deluding some people that they are better than they are.

 

[Carling]

Risk assessments and the HSE are EXACTLY the reason why I do not want any more legislation on the water. There is enough legislation on land and things dont seem to be getting any better!

 

[cagey]

Totally agree, but my point is surelly it should be a requirement that everyone should be able, at the very least , to demonstrate the barest minimum of essential knowledge

 

[old_salt]

Beyond the limits of the inshore waters the oceans are vast, our powers that be in government are only interested in the inshore waters and lets face it thats where the idiots play get out side of the that and life's a different game in the real world.

 

[Lizzie_B]

I sail in the USA where such compulsory operator's licencing already exists in many, if not all, states.
I can assure you there is no appreciable difference in the stupidity exhibited by some on the water, and in some areas I have seen levels of breathtaking stupidity every sunny saturday, that I have never even heard of in the UK after years of sailing busy Solent weekends.

The levels of craziness seem inversley proportional to the levels of resources given over to enforcement of good practice, and have no bearing on the obtaining of an 'operator's licence'.

Basically, it is the fear of getting caught that seems to deter stupidity. In many locations in the UK, that possibility is negligible. /forums/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

 

[Liz_I]

Seen anyone that has done the fast track yachtmaster recently.. None we have seen know anything about the boat/sailing/safety. It shows only experience really counts! Sadly any one today can hire a charter boat & go sailing, most think it's like driving a car. The minimum certs are a joke IMHO.

 

[realslimshady]

3 years ago I was one of those fools and twats-and the reason I'm now on my second boat and enjoying it SO much was because I DIDN'T have to ask permission, get insured, take a test, or jump through any of the hoops that seem to be obligatory before you are allowed to do anything in our increasingly regulated and policed life these days.. And if everyone was required to demonstrate the 'barest minimum of essential knowledge' then there would be no-one in the Big Brother house..and I see many car drivers who should have been put down at birth.. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

[cagey]

Again I agree but my point is make barest education ( Coll regs : port, starboard etc ROW etc ) a requirement.
Obviouslly everyone answering my post has the sense and intelligence to make their world safer, but I am arguing that irresponsible idiots should be made accountable and possibly traceable for their stupidity

 

[William_H]

Well UK folks I suspect it will only be a matter of time before a licence is required for boat skippering in UK. No matter how much you dislike it. Here in Oz all states AFAIK require a skipper to be licenced and the exam and practical would be very similar to the RYA day skipper level.
Here in West Oz it has been brought about by the number of tragedies on the water.
I suspect this is in part due to our climate where every young blood having got a car turns to a desire for a boat. This frequently is the aluminium trailer boat with 40HP. Just enough to get into real trouble in the ocean. I calculated there is one registered boat for every 20 of population. All boats must be registered if they have a motor.
It is quite common to see inspectors checking safety gear at boat ramps and also inspectors with radar checking speed limits.
I actually agree in principle with the legisaltion. And the enforcing of it. olewill

 

[oldsaltoz]

G'day Cagey,

I suspect legislation comes under 3 headings and we need to consider what they are trying to achieve.

There is legislation that is passed to swell government coffers, I'm sure there is no need to clarify that here. (Money related)

Then there is legislation that tries to protect certain groups of people, companies, government bodies and so on (Protection)

Then there is my favourite, the type of legislation that is designed to protect idiots that governments make a fortune from; If you ride a bike you must have a helmet, no freedom of choice because if you don't it's hefty fine, same for seat belts and so on; are they protecting the idiot or just making lots of money from the rest of us?

In general I support any system that ensures people can demonstrate a knowledge of the basics in any activity that has to potential to threaten life and property, so a basic boat licence should be seen as problem as it at least tells you the person has given the correct answer at least once, so should know better; this has to better than no knowledge at all.

Avagooweekend......

 

[Lizzie_B]

It's the second part- accountability and traceability that makes the difference,not some basic test - as I've seen in the USA.
There are sufficient laws, and local authorities have sufficient powers to pass bye laws to make that achievable with out some ineffective compulsory test being introduced.

What is needed is the will power to enforce and prosecute, after all the Dorset Constabulary once spent hours persuing a holiday maker who had stolen a pebble from Chesil Beach!!

How many times do we see stupidity on the water, huff and puff, but never report it, just like we do on the roads. /forums/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

 

[ShipsWoofy]

Re: Fools and Twits on the water

[ QUOTE ]
<span style="color:red">Snippy</span> - It is quite common to see inspectors checking safety gear at boat ramps - <span style="color:red">Snippy</span> - olewill

[/ QUOTE ]

While part of me thinks this is a good thing, our experience of countries that work like this is another. People buy the bare minimum to comply, see the wretched minimal life-rafts as brought up by a letter of the month in one of the mags, childrens beach spades as paddles, acrylic floor, no stabilisers etc etc.

Not only that, some people buy the items on the list with no idea of function, tuck them into a locker and never see them again, but at least they comply. Unfortunately, Darwin suggests that these people, the ones the thread points at, can not be helped. That's life, by regulating, it will just antagonise those who don't need it. The targets, will again be over looked.

Also, no amount of training can teach common sense, many of the people we all suffer, will pass an exam hands down, they will pass a test without fault. It all goes so badly wrong when the world around is all new. Here ends my lecture /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[cagey]

Sir
Have been an avid reader of your advice over the years again I have to agree with you.
Your points match mine almost exactly and as a child of the sixties I condemn any Controlling Influence but the mayhem I watch on the water can't continue, soon there will be a nasty incident in UK waters and HM Gov will step in, surely it is better to have scheme in place, rather than one imposed by HM Gov.
Thanks for your view
Keith

 

[oldsaltoz]

G'day olewill,

How's it going on your side of the island? I checked and you are only 5,005 Km away by road, should take 2 days and 6 hrs if I don't stop at the pub.

Interesting about how our boat licence system works, yet another demonstration of how legislation has gone wrong. As an AYF approved Offshore Yachtmaster with thousands of miles under wy keel, I am not licensed to drive a tinny with more than a 10 Hp engine, but a 90 foot sailing boat with twin 400 Hp engines is OK. I give up, you can only chuckle a. I attended the training and as luck had it I recognised the examiner, more important he recognized me so I was excused and he sent the required papers in for me.

I wonder if the other countries will have virtual licenses as we do, no need to carry another card, they just need your name and birth date, then onto the laptop and they get the info and a picture of you (from your drivers licence) great system.

Avagoodweekend......

 

[cagey]

You are so right, the buggers will have you by the balls.
I can't resolve the basic " Stuff the State" state of mind, but even in "laid back" Falmouth, arrogant idiots in boats who have no idea of col regs, still jepordise my quiet enjoyment.
Keith

 

[oldsaltoz]

No shortage of policing here, beach / ramp inspectors, water police, I have seen 3 water police boats patrolling an area no bigger than football grounds 24 hours a day during high exposure events in the Whitsundays.

But we do have the same problem with some rent a wreck charter boats, a half our video and an instructor for the first 30 minutes just isn't enough.

In general the attitude here is one that promotes giving someone doing the wrong thing a hard time, and you just about count on others for plenty of support, mind you the boats are a bit thick in the water up this way, with more boats registered than most capital cities and we are 1,1oo km from our capital, Brisbane.

We have had the Police, HM Customs and the Park rangers marine officers alongside on many occasions, just a chat and very friendly, no pressure, no problems, I even had one come alongside to introduce a new officer who had just joined the local patrol. These blokes are good value and do a great job without a big stick attitude.

I think a big part of people accepting authority is in the manner the authority treats you. If I did the wrong thing and was charged I would not be calling the authority, be customs, police or ranger a pack of b@st@rds, more like call myself a stupid on and deserved it.

Avagoodweekend......

 

[Scillypete]

[ QUOTE ]
soon there will be a nasty incident in UK waters and HM Gov will step in,

[/ QUOTE ]

There already has been and the court case finished the day before the gov's kneejerk reaction to bring in the drink boating laws for all, which has already been discussed to death on here.

Cannot agree with bringing in compulsory licence, idiots have a tendency to wipe themselves out before they wipe out an innocent bystander.

 

[Lakesailor]

[ QUOTE ]
How many times do we see stupidity on the water, huff and puff, but never report it, just like we do on the roads. /forums/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with the trend of this thread.
That regulation and licensing will achieve nothing.
In Bowness, a holiday destination, drivers do the most ridiculous things , stop in the stupidest places and appear not to understand roundabouts.
British drivers, that is, them foreigners are more careful.

Driving on the narrow roads seems to completly freak them out.

It must be to do with being off their own patch and out of their comfort zone.

Experience is surely the only remedy.

On the water. Well, you just need your eyes all around you.

 

[raquet]

In France the licensing requirement is dependent on boat type and engine size. I forget the exact engine size but for a pure powerboat anything above about 7hp needs a skippers certificate. For sail boats there is a more complicated rule which involves the ratio of engine size to displacement. The idea is to allow sail boats with a reasonable sized engine but disallow power boats with a pretend mast and set of sails. As a result of this rule you see huge numbers of small sail boats with unusually big outboards for their size and no signs of ever having sails on their spars – they push the limits of the rule where they can. The authorities have genuinely tried to build a legislative compromise. I know it will upset the little Englanders on this forum but the French bureaucrats have made a sensible attempt at control. There is little to fear from a pottering sail boat but unschooled drivers of power boats of any size and speed are a menace. My stupidity in my boat may well impose a risk on me and my (volunteer) crew but it imposes little risk on others. If I stick a huge engine on lump of plastic and shove off I impose risks on all about me.