Fools and Twats on the water

[hypno56]

I have day skipper practical and theory and have crewed on and off for a number of years.

I have recently aquired my first boat and now I find myself conciously incompetent.

I do not know engine maintenance, I have no SRC, the boat electronics set ups have to be learned, Coll regs, aspects of navigation have to be brushed up.

As a friend of my daughter said - "I can sail a boat, its the stopping that's difficult". On my day skipper practical I had to ask the instructor to do "close quarter manouvering".

But who was not in this position unless brought up sailing?

I will go out knowingly incompetent and learn by doing.

The knowing on these forums are a great help - keep it up and rememberwhere you started.

 

[l'escargot]

[ QUOTE ]
Seen anyone that has done the fast track yachtmaster recently.. None we have seen know anything about the boat/sailing/safety....

[/ QUOTE ]
I've seen a lot of them, and most of them leave a lot of "experienced" hands standing.

 

[BrendanS]

At least a lot of them will have learnt some best practice, which a lot of self taught will have no idea about.

I exlude most people on the forum, as everyone here learns at least something, and maybe a lot.

 

[Plomong]

Cagey,

I strongly recommend you rewire your neurons, if you will excuse my expression.

An effective way to do so would be to observe the general antics in any of the more popular pleasure boating areas in France or Spain any sunny saturday or sunday, or during the annual holiday period in either country. I could write volumes describing the acts of fools, incompetents, suicidal idiots, etc etc that I have seen. All were supposedly trained and competent mariners, held certificates issued by their respective governments following suitable training and mandatory tests. Some of them should not be in charge of a floating duck in their own bathroom.

Regulation and certification does not guarantee that all pleasure boat skippers will behave like seasoned mariners, be respectful of and care about others, obey at all times the appropriate rules and regulations, Colregs, etc. It only creates a self-perpetuating industry for "training", "assessing", "certifying" and "inspecting" boats and boaters. That industry has just one reason for its existence: profit.

You should fight hard to prevent the introduction of any form of regulation. It's just not worth it.

 

[Phoenix of Hamble]

That puts you well ahead of the pack....

Appreciating what you don't know is a whole lot smarter than just assuming you know it all....

Reflecting on your comments about people "brought up sailing"... I've sailed all my life.... from a few days old.... and in the last few years I have learnt so much from this forum its staggering.... yes, regarding close quarters handling, I am comfortable with a boat in tight situations, and frankly, don't remember ever not being... but by 'eck i've still got a lot to learn about it and a long long list of mistakes to make! (and the same with all other parts of sailing) /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

The scary ones are those that think that they have 'mastered' the art of sailing..... /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif they forget who the master is......

 

[angelsson]

Must agree with that comment re regulation and the position adopted by the RYA to state intrusion. We have far to much already at a huge cost, much of it derived by the unelected interfering we know best directives.
Can you imagine the H & S beaurocratic, polically correct nightmare we would descend into, something incidently the French have no equivalent of, I understand the H&E fascists employ more people then Tesco!

 

[davidpbo]

I think one thing we can do is try maintain and a level of courtesy that IMHO and limited sailing is generally (not always) better on the water.

I have a marked difference in my attitude to people who "just got something wrong" because they are inexperienced or incompetent as opposed to someone who agressively cuts me up, comes too close or forces me to do something I did not wish to do when I am stand on/or in road terms have right of way and I don't think that type of behaviour is necessarily modified by training.

 

[Liz_I]

You highlighted the point! 'None we have seen' is probably quite relevant & no, we would not 'condem' all fast track yachtmasters. However one would expect that, in this particular instance, he would have know that hoisting the main sail onto the pointy end would not work!! The use of a power winch, well that's a long story but it involved many ball bearings on the deck. Point is that in the 13 weeks (think that's the time scale for fast track YM) They probably learn how to be a YM not how to rig the boat, look for wear & tear chafe etc. One can pass exams by being really good at the theory but it's only the miles that teach you. To answer your question how can we make such a sweeping statement - 4 in the past 3 years. In conjunction with Lemain's experience these few actually believed they knew it all - frightening!
In today's sailing world it's important to be aware, however with the publicity/coastguards etc being able to call for help is all too easy. Many years ago we were of the opinion that sailing was one of the last bastions of freedom but sadly this is changing. Don't really know what the answers are but there has got to be some form of regulation and sadly it will come but not from the 'sailors' but from government bodies who have no idea about the water! Perhaps it would be in the interests of the sailing schools to make these courses slightly more intense, to cover rigging a boat, bending on sails, perhaps the instructors could put a worn block on to see if the 'skipper of the day, notices? Obviously there is a limit we are well aware of this but with the increase in chartering, boat ownership etc it is many accidents just waiting to happen.

 

[Anonymous]

I agree with all of that and am acutely aware of my own potential gaps having never been trained on a formal course. However, I have read more than one of all the relevant books as well as having been brought up with boats since before I could walk so hopefully the gaps are not huge. As you say, this forum also informs me and keeps me on my toes, as well as giving me information about new technology and ideas.

What nobody ever seems to mention is 'talent'. The two Day Skippers I mentioned - one has talent and will make a good sailor if she works at it whereas the other one is utterly talent-less when it comes to boats of all sorts. He is like a hippopotamus waiting to slip, drop, snag, catch, fall, forget, and otherwise cock-up (and down). He is a really nice chap and one can't get cross with him but no matter how many courses he goes on, he will never make a sailor because he has no talent in this department. In his own field he is highly talented but you feel like fitting him with arm floats before he gets on board. Actually, he loves to swim which is probably just as well /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[BrendanS]

I agree with those points as well. In addition, some people come to boating already understanding basic chart reading and understanding of wind conditions, as they've been involved in other sports which require that understanding.

Some people will never understand, either through lack of interest, or an inability to take on the basics. Though I'd say those are limited numbers

 

[fishermantwo]

[ QUOTE ]
G'day olewill,


I wonder if the other countries will have virtual licenses as we do, no need to carry another card, they just need your name and birth date, then onto the laptop and they get the info and a picture of you (from your drivers licence) great system.

Avagoodweekend......

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm afraid I would be one to disagree with this system.
I was pulled over while delivering an outboard motor to the local sailing club a few years ago. The motor was on the tray of my truck, the Water police pulled me over on the road a few hundred yards from my residence. They were checking for stolen outboards. From my number plate entered into their laptop they knew I was a professional fisherman with a master class 5, also that I held a shooters license. Next thing we are down at the wharf and they are searching my fishing vessel, illegally as it turned out later. I had a couple of rounds in the same compartment as my rifle. End up in court were I ended up with two years good behaviour bond. I could have won the case but it was cheaper to take the fall.

Interestingly I had rescued 4 policemen {in uniform} previously from the same fishing vessel. I will be leaving them next time.

 

[Lakesailor]

Can't help but agree there. Some boaters are at ease with the environment and some are constantly waiting for disaster.
I realise that the former category could include those who make crass mistakes, but so could the latter.
I went out with someone who's had a little fishing cuddy boat for a few months. On returning to the trailer, still in the lake from where we'd launched, he tried to drive back onto the trailer.
I was terrified. With good cause. He had no idea about the characteristics of his motor or the stopping power of his prop, or even if he could get it into astern when he needed it. Luckily the trailer had been left quite deeply in the water and his boat overshot it, glancing off the winch post. But the opportunity for disaster was frightening.
It seems he'd seen someone else motor back onto his trailer and thought it looked easy.
I nearly became religious.

 

[ShipsWoofy]

[ QUOTE ]
perhaps the instructors could put a worn block on to see if the 'skipper of the day, notices?

[/ QUOTE ]

I notice mine every time I sail, c'est la vie..

 

[William_H]

High Oldsaltoz drop in any time we will go for a sail.... I would recommend Mr Qantas though. It is a bugger of a drive.
We have had 15 days continuos with rain froecast so it is definitely winter. No one is complaining mind you.
Anyway each state has its own rules about licences. Ours are just coming in. The only thing that bugs me is the requirement to carry the licence. I am sure it will end up on the bottom. not to worry.

While many posters have identified that idiots will be idiots regardless of licences. We had a member last summer who after a long evening in the club drinking decided to take friends to Rottnest in his 40ft power boat only to rip the bottom out of it on a reef in the dark. He is a very experience over 50 idiot.

Authorities realy have to go the training nd licence route it is the only gesture possible which may help some people. To do nothing is worse.
Yes people must wear a helmet on abike. It costs the state a lot more in hospitals if they don't. olewill

 

[Andrew_Fanner]

>>>
Authorities realy have to go the training nd licence route it is the only gesture possible which may help some people. To do nothing is worse.
>>>
I don't know, Darwin will still prevail, just the rest of us will pay money for something that was previously free, and get no additional benefit.

 

[Anonymous]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know, Darwin will still prevail, just the rest of us will pay money for something that was previously free, and get no additional benefit.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, and it's worse than that. Once they have licenced something it is regarded as a privilege (not a right) which they can take away if you don't conform (as a punishment, even if your 'transgressions are in areas that don't relate to the licence). Furthermore, they have more information on you and your activities which is all consistent with the inexorable increase in state control of the individual. We are already potentially up to the level of contol of "1984" (even thought control is now taking place in a limited way) - goodness knows where it will end. All the individual can do is to fight a rearguard action to slow the inevitable. Will it go as far as the individual being enslaved by the state? Is the state today just a collection of powerful individuals?

 

[alant]

Re: Fools and Twats on the water- attitude v aptitude perhaps?

"Perhaps it would be in the interests of the sailing schools to make these courses slightly more intense, to cover rigging a boat, bending on sails,"

We keep chewing over the same stuff don't we!
However, don't forget -

(1) Sailing schools are in a very competitive market.
If they (or their Instructors) are seen as being too harsh with leisure sailors, their income will suffer. Day Skipper candidates will NOT undertake more lessons to 'qualify' as a DS if advised they are not up to standard. They certainly will be unlikely to come back & go onto further CS/YM courses.

(2) The RYA, keep piling on more stuff into courses, without dropping any of the other stuff, expecting it to be taught within the same 40 hour period. Why not extend the course time, so it can be done properly?

(3) People these days, want an 'instant' fix! They want & expect, because the RYA tell them, to become 'competant' sailors in a week!

(4) RYA courses are being tailored toward this expectation,
(a)with 5 day courses being changed to several weekends, no requirement to be consecutive
(b) shorter courses (start sailing etc)
(c) no manatory requirement that people should either undertake or already be at comp crew level, before going on a DS course.
(d) no mandatory requirement that DS candidates SHOULD have done a DS Theory course, or be at that standard, before wasting others time learning it on a practical course

(5) 'dumbing down' courses - new 2 day 'DS' style RYA theory course being introduced in Sept. Even if the content is ok, doesn't it send a signal suggesting that if its easier, then its approved?

(6) External examiners for CS/YM practicals, being 'filtered' by fast-track establishments 'allegedly'. This ensures a high pass rate, which is again good for business.

What we need perhaps, is some dignity in the sport, by using Chay Blyth's ethos of making it appear so difficult to achieve, that you actually are proud of your hard earned skills, because they were bloody difficult to get!

Unfortunately, that takes effort & time (blood, sweat & tears).

Sad isn't it?

 

[Liz_I]

Re: Fools and Twats on the water- attitude v aptitude perhaps?

Alant,
Sort of proves the point. Thank you for such an in depth & reasoned argument. So what are the answers? Your comment on Chay Blyth I would whole heartedly agree with

 

[Anonymous]

Re: Fools and Twats on the water- attitude v aptitude perhaps?

I can't disagree with any of that but we must realise that when someone is given a certificate of competence to do something they (and their families, friends, mates) take it for granted that they are, indeed, competent. Just like passing the Driving Test, or the General Flying Test and the issue of a Private Pilot's Licence.

By issuing the DS we tell 'everyone' that that person is a 'skipper'. CC is a much safer title. If DS does not take people to the stage where they are safe to skipper a boat in daytime inshore (and it doesn't, at least not by itself), then it should NOT be called 'skipper'. Call it Boat Skills Module 1, or whatever, but avoid the use of the word 'skipper'.

 

[flaming]

Re: Fools and Twats on the water- attitude v aptitude perhaps?

I can't totally agree with that.

I used to teach day skipper, and I would somewhat resent the accusation that I passed people as "skipper" who were not capable of skippering a yacht in sheltered waters by day.

Obviously the way day skipper is set out in the log book gives you exactly what to cover, and shows the level of competence required in each area. However, every instructor I've ever met also did one final check, which was very simply to ask yourself at the end of the week if you would be happy stepping off the boat and letting the candidate take your family out sailing.
If the answer to that was a no then they didn't pass.

I think the biggest problem is people who do day skipper and then don't sail for a period of time. If you're not out there sailing your skills get rusty, it's the same for everyone but if you've only just learnt the skills you don't have the experience to fall back on.