Flags, etiquette and Respect.

[rotrax]

Why, I wonder, would a Frenchman furl his flag? Don't get that.
Still, evidently a respectful gesture.

Same reason the Lights on the Eiffel Tower were turned off - a mark of respect and sadness.

 

[Bran]

From the Horses mouth, the RNSA...

Half-Masting Procedure

​

For those of you afloat, you would wish to be aware of the following guidance regarding flag etiquette during the period of National Mourning.
Flags flown at half-mast are to be flown with the top of the flag positioned two thirds of the way up the pole/mast/halyard, but not less than one flag breadth from the top. Flags are not to be flown at half-mast from flag poles that are greater than 45 degrees from the vertical. In this instance either a black cravat or ribbon is to be added to the top of the flag at the hoist or the flag is to be removed. In order to show respect, when flags are raised, they are to be raised to full-mast and held for 2 seconds before being lowered to half-mast and secured. Similarly, when lowering the flag, it should be raised to full-mast and held for 2 seconds before being fully lowered. Flags flown permanently are to be lowered and raised again.
Once routinely flown flags have been half-masted, they should be flown 24 hours per day until further notice. This directive supersedes single service flag protocols.
Flags will be flown at full-mast at all locations from the time the principal proclamation of the accession of His Majesty the King is read, until the regional proclamations have completed. Exact dates and times will be notified by the Palace, but is antcipated to be for 24 hours from 1100 on 10 September.
Ensigns will return to full mast from colours the day after the funeral.

This is where I am confused, the government updated their advise yesterday specifically for this event, it says:
On poles that are more than 45° from the vertical, flags cannot be flown at half-mast and should not be flown at all.
So who is correct?

 

[ylop]

Flag etiquette is weird at the best of times; an arbitrary set of rules on how one should or should not doff ones cap is bizarre. If you wish to mark your respects in some way, crack on. Telling other people that their method of marking respect does not conform to the choreographed policy of reverence has nothing to do with respect.

 

[Slowboat35]

Flag etiquette is of course about as far from weird or bizarre as can be to anyone who troubles to take an interest in history. It is a long-established tradition developed over centuries or more that reflects our nations's habits and methods of showing respect, ie it is a national system of formal official manners if you like.
Society has norms and disrespect is shown by ostentatious displays of contrary behaviour - not by those who support or point out the polite way...

 

[Slowboat35]

This is where I am confused, the government updated their advise yesterday specifically for this event, it says:
On poles that are more than 45° from the vertical, flags cannot be flown at half-mast and should not be flown at all.
So who is correct?

I'm not sure where the confusion lies, or where anythng has been updated specifically for this event (because I don't believe it has).

The quote I posted in post #20 is quite clear.
This is backed up by the advice from the Institute of Flags.
" Flags cannot be flown at half-mast on poles that are more than 45° from the vertical, but a mourning cravat can be used instead (see below)."
Therefore if a cravat cannot be added on a +45' pole then the flag should not be flown at all, (ditto on short yacht staffs.)

 

[Bran]

I'm not sure where the confusion lies, or where anythng has been updated specifically for this event (because I don't believe it has).

The quote I posted in post #20 is quite clear.
This is backed up by the advice from the Institute of Flags.
" Flags cannot be flown at half-mast on poles that are more than 45° from the vertical, but a mourning cravat can be used instead (see below)."
Therefore if a cravat cannot be added on a +45' pole then the flag should not be flown at all, (ditto on short yacht staffs.)

Maybe I am overthinking this but my view is: looking at institute of flags I always thought they were the go to place for flag etiquette.
I made up some cravats, in-line with the institutes views.
gov.uk issued some guidance, this was edited 8 or 9th this month, specifically for this event, did not include any reference to cravats, indeed said if you cannot lower the flag do not fly it so I didn’t fly it.
The institute mentioned that the proclamation day ended 8.00 am the day after the proclamation. Gov.uk says it’s 13:00.
No major deal, mostly over now but there is inconsistency amongst different organisations as I guess this hasn’t been experienced for some time.
Regardless, it’s fascinating watching the proclamation procedures, so much history!

 

[chrishscorp]

Maybe I am overthinking this but my view is: looking at institute of flags I always thought they were the go to place for flag etiquette.
I made up some cravats, in-line with the institutes views.
gov.uk issued some guidance, this was edited 8 or 9th this month, specifically for this event, did not include any reference to cravats, indeed said if you cannot lower the flag do not fly it so I didn’t fly it.
The institute mentioned that the proclamation day ended 8.00 am the day after the proclamation. Gov.uk says it’s 13:00.
No major deal, mostly over now but there is inconsistency amongst different organisations as I guess this hasn’t been experienced for some time.
Regardless, it’s fascinating watching the proclamation procedures, so much history!

Yes there has been conflicting advice and instruction, so we are following the .Gov advice you mention in #19.

We have a large public event tomorrow with several thousand expected the vicar is turning up to say a quick prayer and I have to drop the flag to half mast at 13.00 just before the vicar starts. A number of thanks received for the prompt sorting of the flag and only one written complaint, ' the flag is 12'' too low in my opinion' Keep calm and carry on....

 

[Slowboat35]

As far as I have seen all opinion Inc the Institute of Flags and the Royal Navy is unanimous that cravats are the correct procedure with those short or angled staffs that cannot manage a true half-hoist. For certain, if you can't arrange a cravat then the flag should be removed.
As for Gov.UK? I am absolutely certain that advice to just remove the flag is incorrect by omission. If they don't know what a cravat is they really shouldn't be giving advice. (It is the Civil Service remember).
How else could the British Legion or any military hand-held standards be shown in mourning if it were not for cravats? It would be unthinkable not to display them at all.
For proof positive in the real world search for images of ensigns with mourning cravats. The thousands of pics including military ensigns is surely all the proof anyone needs? This is utterly standard, basic international flag protocol after all.

edit.
Out of interest itseems it's the Royal College of Arms that has the purview over such matters, headed by the Earl Marshal.
Their advice is rather general and they do not specify the means or detail of arranging flags at half mast, just the when and where, they clearly assume that we do know...!

It's all a bit haphazard, isn't it?

 

[Bran]

The fact we are discussing it means we care.
Alarm set for 13:00, I think Slowboat is correct so cravat it is.
Ps what is the etiquette for overtaking the hearse on its 125 mile journey?

 

[Cardinal]

Probably mutinous to suggest we do this more often in order to gain in familiarity with the proper drill, so I will not do so?

 

[Slowboat35]

Hey, I wouldn't claim it's me that's correct, I know as much about this as anyone else. I've just presented the info I've dug up. I too knew nothing of cravats last week.

edit...

York Herald at the Royal Collge of Arms has confirmed to me the 45' protocol.
Add a cravats or remove the flag.
I hope that puts any doubts to rest.

Gov.UK advice is incomplete.

 

[dunedin]

Probably mutinous to suggest we do this more often in order to gain in familiarity with the proper drill, so I will not do so?

That’s not mutiny ….. it’s Treason

 

[Cardinal]

Treason has a less nautical feel than mutiny but I agree.

 

[Never Grumble]

As far as I have seen all opinion Inc the Institute of Flags and the Royal Navy is unanimous that cravats are the correct procedure with those short or angled staffs that cannot manage a true half-hoist. For certain, if you can't arrange a cravat then the flag should be removed.

I went for the option of a cravat, although my naval service was many years ago I felt it was appropriate to make the effort. Mind saw very few boats this afternoon having any regard to any attempt to show their respect through half mast and ours was the only cravat I saw, and that was in a naval port.

 

[Bran]

Cruising up through Windsor, Henley on Thames and beyond I have not seen any cravats. Even the bastion of flag etiquette that is Henley produced mixed flag behaviour, especially one large club that still had 2 half mast flags well into the proclamation time.
Flag institute have updated their site:
HM Queen Elizabeth II 1926-2002 | The Flag Institute

 

[oldgit]

a somewhat curt "debate" was going on via Ch08 between a couple of club members, with reference to the ensign positions on couple of boats daring to get underway .

During the voyage on the day concerned it was noted that all the small parish churches lining the banks of the Mudway had followed the correct timings and procedures to the letter.
........but the Flag on the mast on Rochester Castle ( Tallest in UK) remained firmly at the top of its travel throughout the day.
A secret bunch of Republication third columists perhaps, still in the castle, since the lasy Royalists failed to get inside or the council not prepared to pay the overtime for somebody to do the job.
Waiting for certain newspapers to get to bottom of this .

 

[Daydream believer]

Why, I wonder, would a Frenchman furl his flag? Don't get that.

Because he has not filled in his E 1331 & does not want the non existent BF to hassle him.

 

[jon711]

Shouldn't the union flags lining the Mall have cravats on?

 

[xcw]

Shouldn't the union flags lining the Mall have cravats on?

They all have black ribbons

 

[Keith 66]

At our clubs centenary sailpast last saturday I did not have a cravat so i added a long black tie to the top of my red duster. I doubt anyone noticed but the intent was there.