Flag and burgee etiquette question

[paul.dlf]

Hi All,


I’m looking for some advice on flag etiquette and I’m hoping that someone here can help me.

I am a member of two clubs. One is a Royal club and the other is not. I have a defaced ensign for the Royal club. When I visit my other club, I am obliged to fly my club’s burgee when mooring on the club pontoon.

My question is whether or not it’s acceptable to fly a defaced ensign relating to the Royal club at the same time as a burgee from the other club.

Any advice much appreciated.

Paul

 

[duncan99210]

I fly the burgee associated with my defaced ensign at the top of the hoist on the port spreader, the CA burgee next and then a St Piran's flag. If I were in UK I'd fly them from the starboard spreader but it's occupied by a Greek flag at the moment. Other opinions will be available soon, no doubt.

 

[westhinder]

There is a very entertaining thread about ensigns and burgees and whatever else over on Scuttlebutt.

 

[Pinnacle]

The Warrant you hold from the Royal club to allow you to fly the defaced ensign will probably specify where you my fly the club's burgee. This is usually at the masthead, or if that is not practicable, from the starboard spreader. Usually, if you do not fly the burgee in a specified position, "technically" you are not permitted to fly ( properly referred to as wear) the defaced ensign.

When at your second club and you are flying the clubs own burgee, I am finding it difficult to see how you could continue to wear the defaced ensign.

Others will no doubt be along to warn of severe penalties for breach of the terms of the Warrant ( you do have one, don't you? ) while others will advise you to do just as you please.

For me, when visiting the second club, you should fly the club burgee and a standard red ensign.

 

[duncan99210]

The warrant I hold specifies only that the club member has to be on board for the ensign to be worn. Club rules dictate that the burgee be flown as well as the ensign. My particular club doesn't lay down where to fly the burgee, others do and get quite pedantic on the topic. As for wearing the ensign when flying another burgee, I really don't see the problem unless both clubs have rules about where the burgee has to be flown and there is a conflict between those rules.

As far as I understand, the only legal bit in any of this is the warrant enabling you to use the ensign. Anything else is down to individual club rules.

 

[rotrax]

We were complimented in Port Tarbett last year by a vice president of the CA for flying our CA burgee above our clubs burgee along with the CA's defaced Blue.

Lucky we had that right was it not......................................

Our club-The Portsmouth Offshore Group, part of the Civil Service Sailing Association, seems happy with the situation.

As long as we fly the POG/CSSA burgee when in the club marina, all is OK. Where we fly it in relation to other burgee's seems irelevant.

I have no opinion either way, but I do know members of Royal clubs who take such details REALLY seriously-to the detriment of their club in some instances.

 

[prv]

For me, when visiting the second club, you should fly the club burgee and a standard red ensign.

+1

Or, possibly, the defaced ensign, the corresponding burgee on the starboard spreader, and the second club's burgee on the port spreader as a sort of mere parking permit. But that seems rather rude to the second club whose facilities you're enjoying.

Pete

 

[Spyro]

So where does the Jolly Roger go or the one with the big smiley face on it?

 

[prv]

So where does the Jolly Roger go or the one with the big smiley face on it?

Port spreader, or, if not sailing and the flags are nice and big, halfway up the forestay

Pete

 

[Tranona]

The warrant I hold specifies only that the club member has to be on board for the ensign to be worn. Club rules dictate that the burgee be flown as well as the ensign. My particular club doesn't lay down where to fly the burgee, others do and get quite pedantic on the topic. As for wearing the ensign when flying another burgee, I really don't see the problem unless both clubs have rules about where the burgee has to be flown and there is a conflict between those rules.

As far as I understand, the only legal bit in any of this is the warrant enabling you to use the ensign. Anything else is down to individual club rules.

Not club rules, but a condition of the permit. Section 7 of the conditions, clearly printed on the back of the official permit.

Individuals do not hold warrants - it is the club which is then authorised to issue permits. Again very clearly stated on the permit.

So the OP cannot wear his defaced ensign from one club with the burgee of another - unless (possibly) the other club will allow him to fly it on the port spreader to comply with its berthing rules.

 

[Spyro]

So the OP cannot wear his defaced ensign from one club with the burgee of another - unless (possibly) the other club will allow him to fly it on the port spreader to comply with its berthing rules.

And some people wonder why sailing clubs are so elitist.

 

[Saguday]

I'm glad I don't have to worry about all of this sort of thing

 

[johnalison]

It's tradition, something which is meaningful to some but not others.

For my part, I might be tempted to use the port spreader option. I don't see this as an insult to the junior club but just a recognition of their relative status.

If the defaced ensign can only be worn when the owner is on board, I wonder what the definition of "on board" is? Does one have to lower it when going ashore for a shower? Surely not.

 

[blackfish]

It's tradition, something which is meaningful to some but not others.

For my part, I might be tempted to use the port spreader option. I don't see this as an insult to the junior club but just a recognition of their relative status.

If the defaced ensign can only be worn when the owner is on board, I wonder what the definition of "on board" is? Does one have to lower it when going ashore for a shower? Surely not.

Junior clubs? Status? Really?

 

[prv]

If the defaced ensign can only be worn when the owner is on board, I wonder what the definition of "on board" is? Does one have to lower it when going ashore for a shower? Surely not.

It usually says something like "on board or in the vicinity of the port in effective control of the yacht". So any time on a cruise, but not when you've locked up and gone home. Also not if you've lent your yacht to a friend, chartered it out, nor if you're grand enough to have paid crew and they're living on board or moving the yacht in your absence.

Pete

 

[VicS]

If the defaced ensign can only be worn when the owner is on board, I wonder what the definition of "on board" is? Does one have to lower it when going ashore for a shower? Surely not.

A special Ensign may not be worn unless the owner of the Yacht is on board,
or in effective control of her when she is in harbour or at anchor near
the shore, and the designated Yacht Club's burgee is flown at the main masthead or other
suitable position. The Permit must always be carried on board when a special Ensign is worn.

 

[No Regrets]

Cruising association, or 'Fly a defaced Blue for fifty quid' club...

What a pallava :disgust:

 

[charles_reed]

A special Ensign may not be worn unless the owner of the Yacht is on board,
or in effective control of her when she is in harbour or at anchor near
the shore, and the designated Yacht Club's burgee is flown at the main masthead or other
suitable position. The Permit must always be carried on board when a special Ensign is worn.

Defaced blue always with club burgee - RNSA blue (undefaced) no burgee.
Both require owner and warrant holder to be in charge - if you really want to know the detailed ins and outs refer to an ex-RN officer, who will also tell you that he should call, wearing sword, and demand to see the permit.
Sword is needed to behead any malefactor who is wearing the wrong colour and should have been sharpened by the Armourer!!!

 

[rob2]

Don't understand the angst. If you want to wear a special ensign then follow the rules. if not, wear a red ensign.

By the way, it is considered bad form to fly two different burgees concurrently. So to be really spot on, you strike the special ensign and Royal club's burgee when sailing under the "junior" club's auspices and fly their burgee and wear a red ensign.

Rob.

 

[No Regrets]

Should this be called then 'Cockwaving' thread!? :encouragement: