Flag and burgee etiquette question

[blackfish]

From the RYA website " More than one house flag may be flown on the port halyard, but with caution as too many might appear vulgar to some." http://www.rya.org.uk/knowledge-advice/regulations/Pages/flag-etiquette.aspx

Heaven forfend.

 

[blackfish]

Merchant Shipping Act 1995

4 Penalty for carrying improper colours.

(1)If any of the following colours, namely—
(a)any distinctive national colours except—
(i)the red ensign,
(ii)the Union flag (commonly known as the Union Jack) with a white border, or
(iii)any colours authorised or confirmed under section 2(3)(b); or
(b)any colours usually worn by Her Majesty’s ships or resembling those of Her Majesty, or
(c)the pendant usually carried by Her Majesty’s ships or any pendant resembling that pendant,are hoisted on board any British ship without warrant from Her Majesty or from the Secretary of State, the master of the ship, or the owner of the ship (if on board), and every other person hoisting them shall be guilty of an offence.
(2)A person guilty of an offence under subsection (1) above shall be liable—
(a)on summary conviction, to a fine not exceeding the statutory maximum;
(b)on conviction on indictment, to a fine.
(3)If any colours are hoisted on board a ship in contravention of subsection (1) above, any of the following, namely—
(a)any commissioned naval or military officer,
(b)any officer of customs and excise, and
(c)any British consular officer,may board the ship and seize and take away the colours.
(4)Any colours seized under subsection (3) above shall be forfeited to Her Majesty.
(5)In this section “colours” includes any pendant.

They mean it, y'know!

 

[prv]

They mean it, y'know!

I'm sure they do, in the case of a freighter trying to evade fees or MCA inspections or whatever, through claiming a false flag-state.

I think you're safe from customs officers and consuls boarding you for flying a burgee on the wrong halyard though

Pete

 

[blackfish]

I'm sure they do, in the case of a freighter trying to evade fees or MCA inspections or whatever, through claiming a false flag-state.

I think you're safe from customs officers and consuls boarding you for flying a burgee on the wrong halyard though

Pete

No-one's tried to seize my Welsh Dragon yet. But vessels on the SSR are specifically included.

 

[JumbleDuck]

And some people wonder why sailing clubs are so elitist.

I think the word is "bizarre". But hey, if people want to play these games, why not?

Junior clubs? Status? Really?

Some people believe this. As so often in sailing, devotion to The Rules often seems to be inversely proportional to size of boat.

Merchant Shipping Act 1995

4 Penalty for carrying improper colours.

(1)If any of the following colours, namely—
(a)any distinctive national colours except—

I'm dying for someone official to claim that my Scottish Merchant Flag is "distinctive national colours".

 

[johnalison]

From the RYA website " More than one house flag may be flown on the port halyard, but with caution as too many might appear vulgar to some." http://www.rya.org.uk/knowledge-advice/regulations/Pages/flag-etiquette.aspx

Heaven forfend.

I was assuming that the OP flying his second club burgee to port would mean that this would then have the status of a house flag. Multiple house flags do indeed look ridiculous. If we see such a yacht we tend to say they are hanging their washing out.

It is also curious how many sailors carry a chip on their shoulders. For myself, I have never qualified to fly a blue, defaced or other smart ensign, but I rather enjoy seeing yachts so adorned. I have half a mind to join the CA, but not for their ensign, which I don't much like. If I do, it will cost me rather more than fifty quid.

 

[Blue Sunray]

Merchant Shipping Act 1995

(3)If any colours are hoisted on board a ship in contravention of subsection (1) above, any of the following, namely—
(a)any commissioned naval or military officer,
(b)any officer of customs and excise, and
(c)any British consular officer,may board the ship and seize and take away the colours.
(4)Any colours seized under subsection (3) above shall be forfeited to Her Majesty.
(5)In this section “colours” includes any pendant.

They mean it, y'know!

I know a couple of keen young subbies just out of the factory, this could be quite amusing.

 

[FWB]

You could keep your posh ensign and burgee, not fly the other club's burgee and sign in as a visiting yachtsman

 

[prv]

Multiple house flags do indeed look ridiculous. If we see such a yacht we tend to say they are hanging their washing out.

I think many people nowadays (myself included) regard the port spreader as a kind of "miscellaneous" bucket for anything you want to fly that doesn't have a more specific position laid down. So RNLI flags, charter company flags, flags of associations and societies that aren't formal yacht clubs, skull-and-crossbones to indicate young kids on board, etc. In hot places with lots of charter boats, it's become an unofficial convention to display the nationality of those on board there, because the yacht will already have an ensign and a courtesy flag as specified by law but the actual charterers are probably from somewhere else again.

A hoist of flags right down to the coachroof might look a bit silly, but I don't see anything wrong with two or three up there.

Must admit though, with our previous boat I did like having two mastheads, two crosstrees, and the peak of the mizzen gaff to play flags with. No doubling-up there

Pete

 

[john_morris_uk]

Defaced blue always with club burgee - RNSA blue (undefaced) no burgee.
Both require owner and warrant holder to be in charge - if you really want to know the detailed ins and outs refer to an ex-RN officer, who will also tell you that he should call, wearing sword, and demand to see the permit.
Sword is needed to behead any malefactor who is wearing the wrong colour and should have been sharpened by the Armourer!!!

I think you'll find that RNSA members (if holding a permit for their boat to wear the undefaced blue) are expected to have the RNSA burgee from the masthead (ideally) or at the least from the starboard spreader.

However I'm honorary Chaplain to a small club whose rules say that their burgee must be flown on a Sunday with no other burgee flying on pain of a bottle of Port fine by any other member who spots you. The outcome is that I have to take the blue down on a Sunday and put a red ensign up as I can't put the RNSA burgee up to show the Blue is legit... Its actually a bit of fun as the bottle of Port would almost certainly be opened immediately and shared by all present.

 

[blackfish]

I know a couple of keen young subbies just out of the factory, this could be quite amusing.

Just don't point 'em in the direction of Neyland. Anyway, if I'm to be boarded and have my Dragon seized, I expect no-one under the rank of Flag Officer (isn't that why they're called that anyway?).

 

[superheat6k]

I do not know where I read it, but recall that the senior Club / Association flies its Burgee superior to the junior Club, EXCEPT when visiting the junior Club, when its Burgee is worn Superior, but no reason that you still cannot fly the Special Ensign associated with the Senior Club.

I will check the RNSA rules to see if this is where I read it.

Not sure how this squares with a 'Must fly ours only on a Sunday' rule - time to buy the port I guess !

 

[john_morris_uk]

I do not know where I read it, but recall that the senior Club / Association flies its Burgee superior to the junior Club, EXCEPT when visiting the junior Club, when its Burgee is worn Superior, but no reason that you still cannot fly the Special Ensign associated with the Senior Club.

I will check the RNSA rules to see if this is where I read it.

Not sure how this squares with a 'Must fly ours only on a Sunday' rule - time to buy the port I guess !

That one's a special rule of the old and distinguished club of which I have the honour to be an honorary member if you follow my drift.

 

[VexedIllologist]

Individuals do not hold warrants - it is the club which is then authorised to issue permits.

Just a point of detail on individuals holding warrants. You are correct that individuals are issued permits by Clubs in Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and the Channel Islands, to which warrants in respect of British special ensigns have been issued

Individuals do, however, hold warrants in respect of British special ensigns of Clubs elsewhere (e.g. Royal Bermuda Yacht Club, Royal Irish Yacht Club, Royal Malta Yacht Club, to name but a few).

 

[Kurrawong_Kid]

I was assuming that the OP flying his second club burgee to port would mean that this would then have the status of a house flag. Multiple house flags do indeed look ridiculous. If we see such a yacht we tend to say they are hanging their washing out.

It is also curious how many sailors carry a chip on their shoulders. For myself, I have never qualified to fly a blue, defaced or other smart ensign, but I rather enjoy seeing yachts so adorned. I have half a mind to join the CA, but not for their ensign, which I don't much like. If I do, it will cost me rather more than fifty quid.

+1 There are over 5000 CA Members ( who pay more than double fifty quid !). Very few bother with the blue ensign because they are more likely serious sailors and are not attracted to the CA by the status symbol, but by the practical support available for extended cruising.

 

[VO5]

Or perhaps the solution might be to anchor or moor elsewhere and visit the junior club in the dink. As Admiralty Warrants specify you may fly a defaced blue on your dink under the proviso the dink may be launched and recovered from the vessel to which the Admiralty Warrant is issued then the question of flying a burgee from the dink does not arise and therefore would solve the quandary, which, thinking about it, is what I personally would resort to.

 

[VO5]

......And I have just had another thought on this....
The Admiralty Warrant specifies the Blue should be flown whilst the owner (the warrant holder) is on board, complemented by the club burgee flown from the masthead or if not, from the outer starboard flag halyard.
But I would choose for these to remain flying in my absence since the dink would now fly a blue, because it would seem incongruous I think for both to fly different ensigns. Nothing in the warrant is included to cover this circumstance. I would therefore assume this to be the correct course of action to take.

 

[VO5]

And now yet another thought comes to mind if you are a stickler for absolutely correct flag protocols...
Then, in the event of returning in the dink, recovering it on board and deciding to visit the pub, then the blue and the club burgee should be struck and replaced with a red ensign only, no burgee at all.

Now, where is that lightbulb when you want it ?

 

[VO5]

And finally, those of you here who aspire to pisspot perfection, the convention is one inch of fly for every foot overall.
Then if your boat is 36ft LOA then a yard is perfect.
If your boat is 54 feet overall then one and a half yard is perfect.
But, if your boat is more than 36 feet overall and less than 54 feet overall then it is one inch per foot of LOA.
In my case, because my LOA is 38 foot 6 inches, the nearest fit is one and a quarter yard defaced blue.
These are only available to order hand sewn but not available printed.
The same goes for the dink, which is an Avon Redcrest 10 foot LOA.
Then the defaced blue for the dink is a specially made 10 inch blue.
The cost of a specially made 10 inch blue defaced hand sewn is greater than a printed yard defaced blue.
All this flag malarkey gets to be somewhat expensive if you are devoted to.....er....doing things properly.
Then, if you are devoted perfectionist. I advise you SWIMBO must never have an accurate account of what all these details cost..

 

[nigelmercier]

What a lot of nonsense. My boat doesn't wear anything on the mooring, then a Spanish courtesy flag and a red ensign when at sea. I think I agree with Groucho Marx regarding club membership