First timer - heavy displacement boat

[Twister_Ken]

"The bow will pay off downwind anyway, all you're doing is helping speed up the process." Another one where the wind is always blowing away from the dead end of the trot!

If the wind is blowing from the open end of the alley, it's a doddle. Unroll a smidge of genny and sheet it HARD in port and starboard. Back out. The bow will point the way you don't want to go, which means the stern is pointing the way you do want to go. Slow astern, you'll make some sternway but swing to one side. Into neutral. Wind pressure on the genny will then straighten you up. Slow astern again. Repeat until objective achieved.

Really, there are several ways of skinning this particular feline, apart from a stilletto keel, massive rudder and a sail drive.

I have to say again, though, that if you get yourself in a blind alley with no way out apart from a long passage astern, it's poor planning. Or rather, it is for the skipper of a long keeler which is unhandy with astern engaged.

 

[Poignard]

Clever, but that's not technically warping, your simply using a mud anchor to pivot around.

Yes - fair comment - if a bit pedantic!

PS
"When the line tightens it will pull the bow round into the wind."

How do you manage to get the wind blowing in the same direction each time?

I don't - God does it. Seriously I did say ... the prevailing wind ...', which is usually towards the dead-end.

"The bow will pay off downwind anyway, all you're doing is helping speed up the process." Another one where the wind is always blowing away from the dead end of the trot!

Not sure what you mean here. As I said, the wind usually blows toward the dead-end so the mud-weight makes the bow point into the wind.

If the wind is northerly, or easterly, there's no problem - I just reverse out and let the wind turn the bow towards the exit.

 

[Scotty_Tradewind]

Tricky this as I aspire to a rustler 36 or vancouver 34 but I would not buy one as a first cruising boat.

I would honestly suggest a popular brand more modern cruiser to start with. (see below )

It's akin to asking what car to buy after passing your test. A Range Rover because they are "safe" on ice and snow and can do huge mileages.

Are you going to be going out after just passing your test if the roads are covered in sheet ice?

Are you going to be doing huge mileages?

Can you park it?

If not a Renault Megane would be a more sensible choice to start with......

.

Not sure I understand your point of view??
The comparison you make about a Range Rover etc. imho is a poor one. The advantages of the Rustler, Vancouver and Tradewind type of yachts is that they are not Ferraris or similar and are therefore steady and reliable. They are not twitchy or liable to broach. They are not moved sideways easily in a gust and track fairly well without a great deal of leeway on a reach.

Size is not the handicap that some imagine unless it is a more sprightly racing thoroughbread which deserves lightning responses
Of the awbs I found Bavaria, Gib sea, Beneteau and Jeaneau all more difficult to sail in anything over a F5. All have a tendency to broach even if a little overcanvassed without too much notice. Most of them have as standard poor access to the mainsheet release systems for the helmsman so that you have great difficulty in sailing them short handed.
They do of course have restyled interiors but only the later boats have much broader sterns with a little more accomodation there. Otherwise the interiors of the bigger Longkeelers mentioned and others are often like the Tardis below.

In larger boats you quickly learn to take things slowly in harbour and long keelers are generally extremely reliable and positive on the rudder, especially the tiller versions. The only disadvantage being the steering astern difficuly which all long keelers suffer.This is easily overcome by slow careful manoevering, deserving a little practice of sussing out things like prop walk on some boats, and getting the bows going the right way in forwards motion before going astern. The occassional warp can be handy too in some situations but nothing that isn't usually easily overcome.

"Are you going to be doing huge mileages?" What on earth difference does that make?
Just because you have a larger longkeeler doesn't mean to say you cannot pop over to the Medina River from the Hamble for a meal with friends that evening, then pop back the next morning does it?

 

[doug748]

Run a 10 or 12mm line from the cockpit (via a snatchblock, if necessary) to the bow, through a fairlead and back outside all to the after deck, where it is attached to a 25lb lead window sash weight, which is poised on the toerail.

Reverse out from your finger berth and when the stern is approx. mid-trot, shove the weight over the toerail.

Then relax and wait for a few minutes as the boat drifts downwind, and a little crowd of soon-to-be-disappointed onlookers gathers to watch the fun.

When the line tightens it will pull the bow round into the wind.

Motor slowly ahead whilst retrieving the line from the cockpit. The line is marked so that you can see when the weight is just at sea level. Leave it there to wash the mud off, and go forward to recover it when you have room to.

I have to do it nearly every time I go out because the prevailing wind blows from a direction that would have my long-keeled Twister pinned against the dead end of the trot in no time if I didn't.

I claim no credit for this simple and foolproof method. It's described and illustrated in John Goode and Dick Everitt's 'Handling Under Power' and it works perfectly.

Sounds a good wheeze.

Do you ever find the wind comes close the overwhelming the power of the sash weight? Do you ever come close to clonking the pontoons you have just left? Are you ever singlehanded?

I should like to see this done. Anyone up for making a video? Is it illustrated by photos in the Handling Under Power book?

 

[Poignard]

Sounds a good wheeze.

It's worth a try. I had a practice up Fareham Creek before trying it in the marina!

Do you ever find the wind comes close the overwhelming the power of the sash weight? Do you ever come close to clonking the pontoons you have just left? Are you ever singlehanded?

I have used it in F6 - more than that I wouldn't be going out! On that occasion I had an appoinment to be lifted out, and I had no crew, so I had to do it single-handed.

When you are waiting for her to turn round she may drift towards the side of the trot but it only takes a little nudge of power to put her back in the middle.

I do do it singlehanded that's why I lead the line back inside-all to the cockpit. Even with swmbo onboard I do that because it saves her having to haul in the weight.

I should like to see this done. Anyone up for making a video? Is it illustrated by photos in the Handling Under Power book?

Handling Under Power illustrates and describes it perfectly.

Maybe someone could copy and post the relevent section? Mine is on the boat.

nb I use a square section sash weight so it won't start rolling around the deck.

 

[doug748]

Thanks for that response Parsival.

As you are aware, the big worry is that the bow will not go through the wind. This renders you stuffed, in a tight space.

And spaces are getting tighter. I was on the pontoons at St Peter Port last week. After a 38 foot boat hit my stern getting in, I moaned at the Harbourmaster and he said the maximum was now 40 foot. The walkways are about c115ft apart so two 40 foot boats apposite each other would leave a gap of about 30 feet. Not a lot, accidents are bound to happen. The next day a Frenchman got 90 deg across the stern of three boats, the next day a UK 35 footer took the ensign staff and aerial off his neighbour. That was just the stuff I saw, on one trot.

But I digress. If anyone can supply a copy of the "Under Power" stuff I would be happy to pay for the postage etc.

 

[Scotty_Tradewind]

Thanks for that response Parsival.

As you are aware, the big worry is that the bow will not go through the wind. This renders you stuffed, in a tight space.

And spaces are getting tighter. I was on the pontoons at St Peter Port last week. After a 38 foot boat hit my stern getting in, I moaned at the Harbourmaster and he said the maximum was now 40 foot. The walkways are about c115ft apart so two 40 foot boats apposite each other would leave a gap of about 30 feet. Not a lot, accidents are bound to happen. The next day a Frenchman got 90 deg across the stern of three boats, the next day a UK 35 footer took the ensign staff and aerial off his neighbour. That was just the stuff I saw, on one trot.

But I digress. If anyone can supply a copy of the "Under Power" stuff I would be happy to pay for the postage etc.

Perhaps they would all benefit from fitting a Bow Thruster

 

[Fr J Hackett]

It is interesting to note that no one has suggested the obvious things to do particularly if single handed and or conditions suggest that it may be difficult to leave or enter a berth. Ask for assisstance!

Perhaps people feel that it may be an admission of weakness or lack of skill, it's the opposite.
In 15 years of sailing my own longish keel I can remember refusing a berth twice (once in St Peter Port) and on each occaision was directed to a more suitable berth.

All the berthing arguments against LK boats are fallacious, it will be difficult at first but you will get used to it and learn a lot and whilst you are learning don't be afraid to ask for help.

 

[Poignard]

It is interesting to note that no one has suggested the obvious things to do particularly if single handed and or conditions suggest that it may be difficult to leave or enter a berth. Ask for assisstance!

.

Yes I agree with that. People always seem happy to help, especially if their boat is in the firing line!

 

[Scotty_Tradewind]

Yes I agree with that. People always seem happy to help, especially if their boat is in the firing line!

+1

Most people are very willing helpers .....
and ready to give advice .....
and ready to let you go first to see if getting off the lee shore at a particular time is possible

 

[alant]

Yes - fair comment - if a bit pedantic!



I don't - God does it. Seriously I did say ... the prevailing wind ...', which is usually towards the dead-end.



Not sure what you mean here. As I said, the wind usually blows toward the dead-end so the mud-weight makes the bow point into the wind.

If the wind is northerly, or easterly, there's no problem - I just reverse out and let the wind turn the bow towards the exit.

Pedants on here?

Surely not!

 

[Pleiades]

First timer - heavy displacement

One small point not yet mentioned regarding handling under power - a friend who previously single handed his long keeler in and out of a cramped marina without difficulty now sails a fabulous high performance modern cruiser - one with a ballast bulb at the bottom of a long fin. A superb craft. Only drawback with this modern state of the art design is that when motoring slowly the vessel has very poor directional stability and he now often needs crew to help him safely negotiate the lock gates as any cross wind at all blows it all over the pond. Another near neighbour has a more moderate new cruiser of French extraction and he also readily admits that it is nightmare to berth in any wind as it blows everywhere due to high topsides and very little slow speed grip in the water. I have often seen him come in and it is clearly an abomination to park - I would hate to have to do it - in comparison I pottered in on Sunday in a 7 gusting 8 and snuggled gently up to the berth, stepped off and secured single handed without a moment's doubt. So a modern design does not necessarily mean easy handling under power - the going backwards worry is over- sold imho.

Robin
Pleiades of Birdham
MXWQ5

 

[Kilter]

So a modern design does not necessarily mean easy handling under power - the going backwards worry is over- sold imho.

+1

 

[Twister_Ken]

One small point not yet mentioned regarding handling under power - a friend who previously single handed his long keeler in and out of a cramped marina without difficulty now sails a fabulous high performance modern cruiser - one with a ballast bulb at the bottom of a long fin. A superb craft. Only drawback with this modern state of the art design is that when motoring slowly the vessel has very poor directional stability and he now often needs crew to help him safely negotiate the lock gates as any cross wind at all blows it all over the pond. Another near neighbour has a more moderate new cruiser of French extraction and he also readily admits that it is nightmare to berth in any wind as it blows everywhere due to high topsides and very little slow speed grip in the water. I have often seen him come in and it is clearly an abomination to park - I would hate to have to do it - in comparison I pottered in on Sunday in a 7 gusting 8 and snuggled gently up to the berth, stepped off and secured single handed without a moment's doubt. So a modern design does not necessarily mean easy handling under power - the going backwards worry is over- sold imho.

Robin
Pleiades of Birdham
MXWQ5

I'm in the same sort of situation, going from a full keel to a blade with a bulb. Only caught me out once so far, but it did take me by surprise. Wind blowing strongly down the alley, turned for my slot, wind got hold of the bow and it turned more quickly and further than I'd expected. Bags of welly astern to haul myself out of there and had another go, starting the turn much closer to my slot. Worked that time. In the old boat it would have been a doddle.

 

[doug748]

One small point not yet mentioned regarding handling under power......Another near neighbour has a more moderate new cruiser of French extraction and he also readily admits that it is nightmare to berth in any wind as it blows everywhere due to high topsides and very little slow speed grip in the water. I have often seen him come in and it is clearly an abomination to park.

Robin
Pleiades of Birdham
MXWQ5

Aye. I have been mulling over a similar point for a couple of days.

I would say if there is a lot of keel in the water and not a lot of topside then tide will be your key problem. Particualrly with, even a small, following tide. If there is lots of windage and a small keel then low speed wind effects can easily undo you.
I know the tide will have exactly the same effect on both types but the key lies in Twister Kens point: "Bags of welly astern to haul myself out of there". The lighter boat will be agile, able to steer astern, may have little kick, go both ways, and have the power of a well placed prop. It is easy to get the long keeler into the position of no return. Over 90 deg to the berth, prop kick on the wrong side, a bit of unhelpful wind or tide and you just as well light the Hamlet cigar.
This will not catch you out at home but when abroad, tired, singlehanded and in a new spot....Aye

 

[Tranona]

So a modern design does not necessarily mean easy handling under power - the going backwards worry is over- sold imho.

But brilliant if you need to back down onto a quay to moor every night!. And sophisticated versions of parsifals lead weight on a string (called a bow thruster) are getting pretty common - but will be superceded by steerable saildrive units, already available on some new boats.

You just have to accept that all boats have drawbacks in some way or other - it is how you deal with them that counts.

 

[Poignard]

(...) It is easy to get the long keeler into the position of no return. Over 90 deg to the berth, prop kick on the wrong side, a bit of unhelpful wind or tide and you just as well light the Hamlet cigar.
This will not catch you out at home but when abroad, tired, singlehanded and in a new spot....Aye

Maybe my 'mud-anchor' (see earlier post) might come in handy then. Just drop it in the water (preferably with a line attached) and lie to it while you enjoy your cigar and decide what to do next.

 

[snowleopard]

A guy I didn't know challenged me to a round of golf. He turned up on the first tee carrying just a walking stick and an umbrella in his bag so when he offered me a bet of £100 on the round I jumped at it. At the end of the round he was 7 under par. The next week I watched him thrash the club champion at squash using a racket with no strings. In the bar afterwards he explained that he found sport so easy that he had to make things as difficult as possible to give a bit of a challenge. Later on I asked him if he had a family and he said 'yes, seven children. And before you ask, standing up in a hammock'.

Next time a beginner asks for advice on golf, tell him to use a walking stick.

 

[westernman]

This will not catch you out at home but when abroad, tired, singlehanded and in a new spot....Aye

In those circumstances there is some one in a RIB to act as a bow thruster!

Which means you only need to put the stern were it needs to go. This is very easy in a long keeler with a lot of prop wash over the rudder. And simple in a AWB too.

 

[Scotty_Tradewind]

In those circumstances there is some one in a RIB to act as a bow thruster!

Which means you only need to put the stern were it needs to go. This is very easy in a long keeler with a lot of prop wash over the rudder. And simple in a AWB too.

Bristol Pilot cutter.... what a fantastic looking craft! How many does it take to sail her when all the rag is up?