First timer - heavy displacement boat

[Blueboatman]

Kasabian, go for it!
It will be forgiving, it may well be the boat you would have tended towards anyway, it will look after you, carry all your stuff.

But, if ever you wish to change, I would say buy something that has a ready resale market-the TW35 for instance.

For what its worth some friends of mine bought a TW33 some 13 years ago, DH.
One of them knew very little about sailing then, but,, they have since visited just about everywhere in the pacific that you can sail too or anchor off, still happy, an unmodified boat quietly going about its business without depreciating like a modern AWB
I have just such a heavy cruising boat which ironically I bought for just the sort of English Channel sailing that we are 'experiencing' this inclement summer,plus its onboard comfort, it has thrashed its way superbly down Channel, just enjoyed a week of solid hot clear blue skies in Scilly, whilst many are stuck further east waiting for a weather window to do just that..

 

[Delfin]

I was blessed to sail a Cape George 36 for 20+ years. 12 tons, but a very tall stick. She was originally drawn by Ed Monk Sr. as a one off racing boat in the late 30's and 40's and won her class routinely, then stretched by Atkins a couple of feet and a number were built by Cecil Lange in Port Townsend, Washington. http://www.capegeorgecutters.com/ I always enjoyed sailing past lighter boats in a bit of a sea, who had less momentum and tended to lose speed faster than Anthem did. In very light air, she moved like a much lighter boat because of the size of the main and the height of her stick. I raced against a J 36 for a few hours and while she won, it wasn't by much over 20 miles or so of tacking. Her advantage was she could point higher but I was faster on anything other than a tight beat to windward. On a sail to Hawaii, we left the same day the Vic - Maui race started and beat a number of larger boats across - 18 days. The point is that heavy displacement doesn't have to mean slow if the rig matches the displacement and you have decent sails.

It took me awhile, but I learned to turn her in her own length just having the tiller hard over and using forward and reverse, so I don't think that maneuvering is much of an issue either. Except in reverse. I never did figure out how to go backwards under power.

I wouldn't hesitate to buy a heavy displacement vessel for a first time boat.

 

[Twister_Ken]

Q. Out of all the time you spend sailing, how much of it is spent going backwards, under power

A. A fraction of a smidgen of a gnat's cock of a very small amount.

Therefore, to not buy a boat because it doesn't go backwards very well (but does everything else exactly how you want it to) is daft.

But what about when you really need to go backwards, I hear you ask?

One word. Warps.

They worked for trading vessels and warships long before the steam engine had even been thought of. And they work even more easily on a small yacht with an auxiliary engine.

 

[Avocet]

...But if you're in a marina, you might find you don't GET to spend as much time sailing if you can't reverse out!

Are you going to sail short-handed a lot? If so, warping (depending on the size and weight of the boat and the proximity of everything else, wind, tide, and so on, then single handing or lightly crewed might not be too practical.

That said, I like long-keelers. We went from one extreme to the other, moving from an Evolution 22 to a Cutlass 27! I'm not sure I subscribe to the notion that you get there quicker in a flat-bottomd ligthweight fin keeler other than in a "blow". We used to sail on Morecambe bay, famous for its short, steep waves and even in a 3, going to windward, it was common for a wave to virtually stop the lightweight boat. True, it took off again quickly afterwards, but overall progress wasn't that great.

One thing I like about long-keelers is the lack of slamming in short seas and the lack of that irritating slapping noise that the waves make on the flat quartes when trying to sleep on a mooring. I'd do badly in a race "round the cans", but I've never done that! My biggest drawback is the lack of space below, for the size of boat. I've been in 25 footers with more space! Everything else is great though. I can steer with my little finger in a F6! I can let go of the tiller to tweak a sheet and not worry about which way the boat will be facing when I get back. I can heave to and just sit quietly for as long as it takes to ponder my next move. I can't dry out easily though!

 

[alant]

Q. Out of all the time you spend sailing, how much of it is spent going backwards, under power

A. A fraction of a smidgen of a gnat's cock of a very small amount.

Therefore, to not buy a boat because it doesn't go backwards very well (but does everything else exactly how you want it to) is daft.

But what about when you really need to go backwards, I hear you ask?

One word. Warps.

They worked for trading vessels and warships long before the steam engine had even been thought of. And they work even more easily on a small yacht with an auxiliary engine.

How do you warp down the middle of a marina trot?

Yes, warp out of a berth, but to warp the lines need to be attached to something, otherwise wont work. Also when out of your berth, without "an auxiliary engine", the marina might not be too happy with you trying to sail out.

Yes, long keels have many advantages, but going backwards near a lot of plastic is not one of them.

 

[westernman]

How do you warp down the middle of a marina trot?

Yes, warp out of a berth, but to warp the lines need to be attached to something, otherwise wont work. Also when out of your berth, without "an auxiliary engine", the marina might not be too happy with you trying to sail out.

Yes, long keels have many advantages, but going backwards near a lot of plastic is not one of them.

Correct - but you get to learn how to do it. A few berths down from me at my marina is a guy with a 60ft long keeler parked in a berth hardly and wider than the boat. From May to September, he goes in and out of his berth 3 times a day. He takes out day sailors. He essentially manoevres single handed.

It is very edifying watching him park/leave. No bow thruster and he is in absolute control all the time.

He has had the boat for 20 years now - so he really does know exactly what will happen next and can really place the boat so that the wind will put him exactly where he needs to be.

In his berth (and mine), we very often have very strong cross winds. No problem for him. Much more of a problem for me - I use a warp to get out to make sure I end up pointing the right way in the fairway. I did end up once facing the wrong way - and reversing up the entire fairway in a long keeler is not much fun, although not really much of a problem. Just tedious.

There are many parking situations I now master - and it impresses the spectators to see you manoevre 34 tons with a precision of inches and come alongside gently.

 

[snowleopard]

Correct - but you get to learn how to do it.

And there are lots of very experienced sailors who can get their long-keelers to go where they want. I have also seen some very experienced people make total f*** ups even after owning the same boat for many years.

But why advise a beginner to put himself in that situation when he could have a boat that would go where he points it while he gains experience?

 

[Matelot Joe]

can you put me in touch with your mate in Spain, I hope to be looking soon.
Any ideas on the price ?
thanks
Rod

 

[Kilter]

A. A fraction of a smidgen of a gnat's cock of a very small amount.

A lovely descriptive phrase! Thank you.

Now to all those wailing about reversing long keeled boats. It can be done! It can be done accurately and without panic and it's not too hard to learn.

To the OP, Go for it! It's a boat that will look after you!

 

[Avocet]

I think some long keelers are more amenable than others in that respect! Avocet has a prop cutout barely bigger than the prop and with a fair bit of dead wood ahead of it. The rudder pivots at an angle and I have to say that whilst I can, by and large, get her to go where I want, when going astern, it doesn't always work! I would in no way wish to encourage a beginner, in a considerably larger and heavier boat, and possibly single (or short)-handed to make this his starting point - especially if he's thinking of taking a marina berth!

 

[Kilter]

The boat in question may be one of the more amenable then, it'll back up ok when it has to in my experience

 

[lenseman]

"Bavaria Yachts, for example, are very keenly priced and you can get a quality yacht,"

but don't you have to buy a keel as an optional extra?

 

[Twister_Ken]

How do you warp down the middle of a marina trot?

Yes, warp out of a berth, but to warp the lines need to be attached to something, otherwise wont work. Also when out of your berth, without "an auxiliary engine", the marina might not be too happy with you trying to sail out.

Yes, long keels have many advantages, but going backwards near a lot of plastic is not one of them.

Why would you need to? I owned a long keeler for 10 years and never had to do that. It's called forward planning. Had I ever been in that situation I would could have turned the boat tight by using fwd and rverse on the spot, by putting her alongside something I could get a warp onto to make a short radius turn to get her facing the right way, or by using a little bit of backed headsail to spin her if the wind was convenient.

Now having an extremely manoeuvrable boat I can already sense old skills beginning to atrophy.

 

[Poignard]

How do you warp down the middle of a marina trot?

Run a 10 or 12mm line from the cockpit (via a snatchblock, if necessary) to the bow, through a fairlead and back outside all to the after deck, where it is attached to a 25lb lead window sash weight, which is poised on the toerail.

Reverse out from your finger berth and when the stern is approx. mid-trot, shove the weight over the toerail.

Then relax and wait for a few minutes as the boat drifts downwind, and a little crowd of soon-to-be-disappointed onlookers gathers to watch the fun.

When the line tightens it will pull the bow round into the wind.

Motor slowly ahead whilst retrieving the line from the cockpit. The line is marked so that you can see when the weight is just at sea level. Leave it there to wash the mud off, and go forward to recover it when you have room to.

I have to do it nearly every time I go out because the prevailing wind blows from a direction that would have my long-keeled Twister pinned against the dead end of the trot in no time if I didn't.

I claim no credit for this simple and foolproof method. It's described and illustrated in John Goode and Dick Everitt's 'Handling Under Power' and it works perfectly.

 

[wazza]

We cut our teeth with an Albin Vega (27ft) long keel VERY difficult going astern, but we managed ok.
Then we went on to a 'fast fin keeler' much better in light winds but now are very satisfied owners of a Najad 343 (similar size to your needs) and she feels extremely safe in a blow, center cockpit, great cruiser..

 

[alant]

Why would you need to? I owned a long keeler for 10 years and never had to do that. It's called forward planning. Had I ever been in that situation I would could have turned the boat tight by using fwd and rverse on the spot, by putting her alongside something I could get a warp onto to make a short radius turn to get her facing the right way, or by using a little bit of backed headsail to spin her if the wind was convenient.

Now having an extremely manoeuvrable boat I can already sense old skills beginning to atrophy.

I repeat, "How do you warp down the middle of a marina trot?

Yes, warp out of a berth, but to warp the lines need to be attached to something, otherwise wont work. Also when out of your berth, without "an auxiliary engine", the marina might not be too happy with you trying to sail out."

You state "by putting her alongside something I could get a warp onto to make a short radius turn to get her facing the right way, or by using a little bit of backed headsail to spin her if the wind was convenient."

Lots of would, could, if's.

So what, in a marina trot is something "alongside ---I could get a warp onto", when all you have in most, are sterns/bows of other berthers boats?
Not sure they would welcome being used as a pivot/warping station by a heavy long keeled displacement boat.

"or by using a little bit of backed headsail to spin her if the wind was convenient."

If the wind was convenient?
Also, doing this in a marina?
The operators would have apoplexy!

 

[Twister_Ken]

I repeat, "How do you warp down the middle of a marina trot?

Yes, warp out of a berth, but to warp the lines need to be attached to something, otherwise wont work. Also when out of your berth, without "an auxiliary engine", the marina might not be too happy with you trying to sail out."

You state "by putting her alongside something I could get a warp onto to make a short radius turn to get her facing the right way, or by using a little bit of backed headsail to spin her if the wind was convenient."

Lots of would, could, if's.

So what, in a marina trot is something "alongside ---I could get a warp onto", when all you have in most, are sterns/bows of other berthers boats?
Not sure they would welcome being used as a pivot/warping station by a heavy long keeled displacement boat.

"or by using a little bit of backed headsail to spin her if the wind was convenient."

If the wind was convenient?
Also, doing this in a marina?
The operators would have apoplexy!

Your missing the real point, which is not to get into situation in the first place. To do so is poor planning and seamanship. But if - force majeur - it somehow happens then if you know your boat, there are ways of resolving it.

As to using a bit of jib to spin a boat, no marina operator ever complained when I've done it. I'm not talking about a full genoa, just a few feet unrolled and sheeted home hard, or even aback. The bow will pay off downwind anyway, all you're doing is helping speed up the process.

Believe it or not, there are many full keeled boats in marinae, and they don't make a habit of damaging their neighbours. Their owners just might be a bit above average when it comes to boat handling though.

 

[lenseman]

. . . . . Believe it or not, there are many full keeled boats in marinae, and they don't make a habit of damaging their neighbours. Their owners just might be a bit above average when it comes to boat handling though.

Ohhh, I love it, I love it!

ps: and they wear an un-defaced 'Blue'.

 

[westernman]

Ohhh, I love it, I love it!

ps: and they wear an un-defaced 'Blue'.

No I don't

 

[alant]

Run a 10 or 12mm line from the cockpit (via a snatchblock, if necessary) to the bow, through a fairlead and back outside all to the after deck, where it is attached to a 25lb lead window sash weight, which is poised on the toerail.

Reverse out from your finger berth and when the stern is approx. mid-trot, shove the weight over the toerail.

Then relax and wait for a few minutes as the boat drifts downwind, and a little crowd of soon-to-be-disappointed onlookers gathers to watch the fun.

When the line tightens it will pull the bow round into the wind.

Motor slowly ahead whilst retrieving the line from the cockpit. The line is marked so that you can see when the weight is just at sea level. Leave it there to wash the mud off, and go forward to recover it when you have room to.

I have to do it nearly every time I go out because the prevailing wind blows from a direction that would have my long-keeled Twister pinned against the dead end of the trot in no time if I didn't.

I claim no credit for this simple and foolproof method. It's described and illustrated in John Goode and Dick Everitt's 'Handling Under Power' and it works perfectly.

Clever, but that's not technically warping, your simply using a mud anchor to pivot around.

PS
"When the line tightens it will pull the bow round into the wind."

How do you manage to get the wind blowing in the same direction each time?


"The bow will pay off downwind anyway, all you're doing is helping speed up the process." Another one where the wind is always blowing away from the dead end of the trot!