First timer - heavy displacement boat

[Scotty_Tradewind]

I'm really happy with my T33
Just wish my pockets were deeper to afford a good T35
or even a T39? http://www.4yachting.com/yacht_info.php?yid=25764

 

[Tranona]

I think the whole point is that there are much more suitable boats for a beginner that are quite capable of sailing in the area he is considering. If they are not, then the vast majority of cruising sailors have got it horribly wrong.

Of course people choose different kinds of boats - but this is as extreme (almost) as suggesting something like a McGregor is a suitable bluewater boat. Bit of an exaggeration but hope you get the drift.

Boats like yours are a minority interest - not just because they were expensive new and built in small numbers. They are now relatively cheap. There is a Tradewind 33 curently for sale at a price that would not buy a decent Sadler 29 and 35s are in the same price bracket as similar sized Westerlys and Moodys of comparable age

The reality is that they do not meet most peoples' needs, even though many people (like me) admire them but would not consider owning one.

 

[alant]

Hi,

I am thinking about buying a heavy displacement boat like a Tradewind 35 as a first boat for myself with minimal sailing experience. I simply prefer the concept these kinds of boats and their sense of safeness appeals to me. However, I would like know if this would be a poor choice. I understand they need more of a blow to get going so am I likely to get much use out in average southern North Sea area where I sailing most? I don't think i'dbe happy if i'll be finding myself motorsailing more often than not. Also, I appreciate they can be a pig maneuvering reverse engine. Any other sensible comments on the downsides would be welcome. Thanks!

Check this similar query last year
http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?t=248200

 

[Kasabian]

Thanks for all your replies - its very reassuring to know that i'm not being entirely naive in my proposition though the reality check from some really useful comments has given me pause for thought to more seriously consider alternatives to long keelers. At the end of the day, I want to be getting as much sail time as I can possibly get and if a Tradewind is no going to move in anything under a fairly strong wind then that might swing me toward something lighter. Would love to hear from anyone who sails TWs and how much un-motored use I might expect to get from one during the summer months in southern north sea area. Thanks again!

 

[Scotty_Tradewind]

My T33 with bowsprit making her almost 36' .
She's no J109 (which I've sailed) but with optional reefed cutter rig F6-7 in a rough chop wind over tide 7.5knots+ through the water.
With her Sloop rig, 150% genoa F4 in calm sea 6+ knots.
I've not had a kite up yet but with poled out genoa and goosewinged on a run she was keeping up with most stuff around us.... I was very pleasantly suprised.
They are exceptionally comfortable to sail. We have a large box on the back deck above the lazarette under a gantry. My wife sat back there and watched us sail on one of those weekends in May/June when it was too windy for most people to gain any pleasure from being out. She loved it and we had very little water coming back to us at all in the cockpit and we nearly always sail with the hood down.
You get a lot of boat for your money but one of the problems is that their 'style' is out of fashion and far too expensive to produce economically now.
No long keeler will steer with any certainty going astern. However, with my experience of them there is always a way round that problem. (mine has a Bow thruster)
We've found her far comfier than our Twister and just as much fun when going to places around the Solent so far and easily suits being a day boat as much as a long distance cruiser. What most peoples needs are I'm not sure but unless you'r an out and out racer or wish to go up shallow creeks then I can see no reason why not.
She is certainly very easy to sail and I can see absolutley no reason why a fairly 'green' sailer cannot manage her and would be especially secure in the conditions that are often found in the North Sea.
You wont get there quite as fast as some but terrific value for money in our experience.
And dont forget below...........................

 

[Fr J Hackett]

Look at my earlier post re Vancouver 34 similar to TW in configuration at least. You can sail in a LK you just won't sail as fast as others some of the time. The southern north sea covers quite an area with some significant passages where you may well be thankfull for the seakindly attributes of a LK. However you may never leave port or sail in anything higher than a F4 and there is no harm in that and LK would be of no benefit to you. You really have to consider what you are likely to do there is no simple answer. Personally I would not change my boat unless I intended to effectively day sail or race more frequently and in ernest. However I like passage making and at least once a year will complete a passage when I will be offshore for a day or two perhaps more thats when these boats come into their own you can cook eat and sleep in comfort when in others life becomes a bit more tiring. Of late I have also had to sail more to deadlines than I would prefere so it enables me to set out in conditions that are either in effect or forcast that perhaps one would choose not to. Horses for courses I am afraid.

 

[markleuty]

"Bavaria Yachts, for example, are very keenly priced and you can get a quality yacht,"

Oxymoron surely!

S**t and I just bought one. Damn, I knew I'd made a mistake. But my mate has a TW35 for sale in Spain, perhaps I should buy that instead, would cost a lot less than this Bav I've lumbered myself with....

 

[alant]

S**t and I just bought one. Damn, I knew I'd made a mistake. But my mate has a TW35 for sale in Spain, perhaps I should buy that instead, would cost a lot less than this Bav I've lumbered myself with....

You should still be able to sell & make a profit, 'cos they are so sought after!

 

[Pleiades]

First timer-heavy displacement

Nothing wrong with hankering after an "impractical" boat like a Tradewind 35. Not wishing to get stoned by the light boat brigade I must point out that safety by design is a major factor to add to skipper/crew ability and vessel suitability for prevailing conditions. (I would also add state of repair and maintenance.)
Consider the designer brief -
modern "practical" boats are designed to look spacious down below at boat shows, cram in aft cabins, lots of windows, spin astern on a sixpence and be driven as fast as possible by as little wind or engine power as possible. They will also meet the (very few) safety margins deemed acceptable for adequate marketing. They can of course be cruised safely even if ultimately they might float stable upside down.
The Tradewind however was designed and built to very different brief - to look after a short handed crew crossing oceans in all conditions. So you get safety characteristics which work in any sea areas -you get deep sheltered cockpit, proper sea berths where crew can sleep though gales, very well stayed conservative rig, propellor protected by long keel, a rudder and keel which are not going to beak off, tiny windows to keep the sea out, a steadier motion under way and the ability to sail herself for weeks on end.
Nothing wrong imho for a first timer to prefer a design which looks after the crew and which is specifically built for heavy seas even if he or she does not intend to cross oceans just yet.
I think the more imprortant issue is whether or not to start with such a big boat - whether light or heavy displacement.
I came to Pleiades via two dingies, a West wight Potter, a Caprice and a Hurley 22 and all the small boat experience was wonderful and invaluable. If you can somehow buy that experience then it would be money well spent. So even if I could have afforded the Tradewind back then, would I have bought one?
Damn right I would...... !

Robin
Pleiades of Birdham
MXWQ5

 

[penfold]

I'd have thought for southern North Sea pottering and short crossings to the Netherlands/Belgium/N France something shoaldraft with or without a centreboard would be more optimal, a Southerly or a Feeling maybe. Tradewinds are nice, but not the first choice for the stated task.

 

[seabright]

Long keeler?

My advice, for what it is worth, would be to try a long keeler before you buy. Try one lots of times if you can.

They are great sea boats and tend to be easy on the crew but there are some drawbacks which can be very off putting. They are generally very difficult to reverse and manouvre compared with more modern designs. Don't underestimate the effect this can have on your confidence in actually getting her out of her berth to go sailing in anything but perfect conditions. This, of course, is especially true if you have only 2 people on board. Take claims of controlled reversing with a pinch of salt!

Slow speed sailing manouvres are also more cumbersome which is very different from the mainsail powered dinghy-like feel of some modern yachts - it is easy to stall the keel and/or the rudder at slow speeds, with a greater reliance on sail balance.

I have a long keeler, heavy and steady (the boat that is) and wouldn't have anything else. I am a sucker for their looks and traditional feel. However, I enjoy offshore / ocean sailing so she spends alot of time doing what she is good at.

If you go for one, take time deciding where to berth her and learning her ways. They can teach you alot about how to sail a yacht. If you want low hassle, easy sailing then I would go for a small fin keeler and then move on to what ever you fancy......

Have fun.

 

[chrisedwards]

A long keeler with a large prop appeture can actually be fairly good at going astern - I could get the Vancouver 34 to go either direction astern on many an occassion - yes kicks better one way but don't they all!

I would not really classify a Vancouver as a long keeler in the classic sense - with its savagely cut away forefoot and, as you say, large prop hole. - Rather a well attached fin.

 

[snowleopard]

Of course everyone with a heavy displacement long keel boat will say it's the only way to go and most will sneer at anything with a fin keel. I have sailed in a very wide range of boats and, having a multihull, have no axe to grind in the long/fin keel debate.

In a marina an AWB is going to be vastly easier for a novice. You would get used to a long keel boat in time, knowing what manoeuvres are impossible but you may leave a lot of gelcoat scars before you reach that stage.

At sea, a lighter boat is going to get you there faster in normal conditions or increase your cruising range.

When you are slogging to windward in a hard blow the heavy boat will be more comfortable with a slower motion though the AWB will still get you there quicker.

The broader beam of a modern boat has a lot of 'form stability' and, provided you reef prudently, will sail more upright which is likely to be popular with non-sailing crew (dare I say ladies?)

The greater space below will also be popular.

The idea that AWBs are floating caravans where seaworthiness has been sacrificed for space below is a total myth. I have met plenty of Beneteaus etc that have made uneventful ocean crossings including encountering storm conditions.

 

[Burnham Bob]

i think the debate has got a little far from the original post. in terms of a first time boat, i think there are lots of alternatives that could be considered. a proven design is always a good choice, and an example of an older boat that has been well maintained will be better value than a more modern cruiser.

there is a bit of brand consciousness in terms of pricing for older boats. look at the price of a contessa 32 and you'll see they command a premium. other boats may offer better value for the average sailor. a friend of mine whose family owns a hallberg rassy ( have I spent that right?) advised against buying one much as they loved theirs. his view was that the premium you paid would only be justified if the weather was really nasty........and most of us wouldn't be sailing in that kind of weather if we were paying attention to the sailing forecast.

the only practical advice i can give is choose a boat that has a good reputation, offers you the accommodation you need (that's vital for cruising) and doesn't stretch you to the absolute limit pricewise because as we all know BOAT stands for Break Out Another Thousand. Start sailing asap and you'll find that the boat is a better sailor than you are for a long time to come and when you do decide on another boat you'll know exactly what you want.

enjoy your first boat!

 

[alant]

i think the debate has got a little far from the original post. in terms of a first time boat, i think there are lots of alternatives that could be considered. a proven design is always a good choice, and an example of an older boat that has been well maintained will be better value than a more modern cruiser.

there is a bit of brand consciousness in terms of pricing for older boats. look at the price of a contessa 32 and you'll see they command a premium. other boats may offer better value for the average sailor. a friend of mine whose family owns a hallberg rassy ( have I spent that right?) advised against buying one much as they loved theirs. his view was that the premium you paid would only be justified if the weather was really nasty........and most of us wouldn't be sailing in that kind of weather if we were paying attention to the sailing forecast.

the only practical advice i can give is choose a boat that has a good reputation, offers you the accommodation you need (that's vital for cruising) and doesn't stretch you to the absolute limit pricewise because as we all know BOAT stands for Break Out Another Thousand. Start sailing asap and you'll find that the boat is a better sailor than you are for a long time to come and when you do decide on another boat you'll know exactly what you want.

enjoy your first boat!

"choose a boat that has a good reputation"

So you can easily sell if not happy!

 

[westernman]

Buying a sailing boat is not about logic. If it was we would all be using the latest developments in technology and using engines/electric motors or whatever and not using sails.

It is about the heart, romance for times gone by and a whole bunch of other stuff which is different from person to person and has nothing to do with logic.

So get a boat you like, which you will be proud of, which you will be happy to spend time putting back together, maintaining in good condition etc.

An AWB is practical - is easier to manouever and in general is faster than an older design long keel boat. But one AWB is pretty much like another (at least they all look the same to be - be it a Ben, Bav, Jen, Rustler, Sweden... or whatever.

If you want to sail fast, short handed and cover larges distances, then obviously you need an Open 60 - but a bit much for a first boat!

My boat - a big heavy long keeler does not do reverse like most others. But the satisfaction of having parked stern to in the marina without outside help or a bow thruster and without losing too much paint makes up for that in spades - as does the fantastic magic carpet ride we had in April in a F9 gale without even getting the decks wet.

 

[E39mad]

I would not really classify a Vancouver as a long keeler in the classic sense - with its savagely cut away forefoot and, as you say, large prop hole. - Rather a well attached fin.

Maybe but never seen a fin look like that - provides the best of both worlds imho - some good speed for an encapsulated long keeler and probably the best balanced boat I have ever sailed - it is finger light on the wheel and tracks true even with the gunnels awash.

 

[angelsson]

You've hit the nail on the head with the handling under power, especially astern. No much of an issue when anchoring or using swinging moorings but can concentrate the mind in a marina! The Tradewinds is a great boat and gorgeous with it but when we've sailed in company or 'raced' against them then yes, they do appear slow in light airs so expect to have to use a big ghoster or 'chute to keep up the pace. FWIW, both the Biscay 36 and the Rustler 36 - both similar size and shapes - seem a bit quicker. If that doesn't worry you and it depends on what sort of sailing you're planning, then great, you'll love the Tradewinds. As the wind picks up, the difference diminishes and when it's blowing hard, you'll bless the hull shape for the easy motion. The only other downside to point out is that these 'wine glass section' hulls tend to sail at a slightly higher angle of heel than a more modern design but will remain controllable throughout - none of this stalling the rudder and rounding up malarkey. Accomodation of course, isn't a patch on the modern hulls that carry their beam all the way aft - but if that was you priority, you wouldn't be looking at the Tradewinds...

I've sailed all sorts, but after 50000+ miles in 3 long keeled boats over 28 years, I'm not planning on changing!

I sail Nic 38, long keel, wineglass section design, much the same assets and liabilities as you described, but in the worst of it I know which I would prefer to be on.
I describe her as being 'in' the water rather than 'on' it, if you get what I mean.
For a first timer I feel you are making a good choice, if yu make mistakes she will look after you.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

Maybe but never seen a fin look like that - provides the best of both worlds imho - some good speed for an encapsulated long keeler and probably the best balanced boat I have ever sailed - it is finger light on the wheel and tracks true even with the gunnels awash.

Yep and never had her round up on me or broach and I am prone to hanging on to the canvass, a touch of weather helm to let you know whats going on and as you say wonderfully balanced equally happy offshore as coastal.

 

[Seajet]

Has anyone found out the sort of sailing the OP will really be doing, rather than dreams ?

A responsive boat, in a perfect world a dinghy followed by a responsive cruiser, is the way to learn how to sail.

The maturity to know a long keelers' good and bad points has to come later, there simply isn't a short cut...