First boat options, newbie seeking a little guidance.

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RedRightHand

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Hello all,

I'm looking to get into sailing as a family activity - nothing too adventurous, just some nice day trips learning to handle a boat on a Scottish Loch. The plan is to get a mooring there.

There are two boats which have caught my eye, both around £3000, which from what I have read are designed to be easy to sail, offer decent accommodation, and look like they would fit the bill for family use. I'm also quite keen to have an outboard motor rather than an inboard, I've seen the bills a colleague had to get a Mercruiser engine fettled and I could do without that hassle.

As a newbie I'd really value some opinions from those 'in the know' about which (or neither) of these boats would be a good buy.

The first one is a Folksong 25, it looks like it has had a lot of work done in 2018 to get it to a good standard, and I like the Folkboat lines. The colours are a bit, erm, 'Scandinavian' (I suspect you transport it as a flatpack and it comes with meatballs and Dime bars) but it could do the trick nicely.
https://yachts.apolloduck.com/boat/folksong-25/607...

The second is an Etap 22, which looks a bit broader and like it may be a bit more spacious. From reading the advert I suspect it is a bit less 'fettled' than the Folksong, but I've read a lot of good things about the model, it looks more convenient as it is a trailer sailer (I plan to get a mooring for it but being able to tow it places myself gives some extra flexibility if I want to relocate), and from the photos the interior looks to have a bit more space. I also like the safety rails right the way round the perimeter, we could fit baby netting to those quite easily for a bit of added safety.
https://www.gumtree.com/p/boats-kayaks-jet-skis/et...

Any thoughts/suggestions much appreciated!
 
Firstly, Welcome. This website is a good place to find advice.
Sadly neither of the links you added give me current boat adverts. There are a few people on here who sail boats in that size range and I hope some of them can advise you on what to look for. It did strike me that £3,000 looked rather cheap for an Etap 22.
 
If you can get an Etap 22 for £3000 grab it!

Etap 22 for sale - June 2019 - NewsNow
https://www.newsnow.co.uk › Classifieds › Boats for Sale › Etap
Nov 30, 2018 - Check out all Etap 22 for sale at the best prices, with the cheapest boat starting from £9000. Looking for more boats? Discover all Etap boats for sale!
 
Weird, those links aren't working for me either, though I copied and pasted them directly from the url bar.

I'm going to go and see the Etap on Thursday - I must admit I'm a little suspicious of the price myself - I may be new to this but I can Google a typical going rate and spot one that's cheap. The question is, bargain or banger? Hope to have an update on Thursday! It's in the water at present. What is the usual procedure for buying a boat - inspect it as it sits, agree a price conditional on it not being badly blistered etc, then get it out of the water for a look? The advert states it will need scraping down and antifouling... I'm assuming I'm not going to know if it's blistered/delaminated badly until this is done am I? Seems a gamble, but then I am an optimistic idiot...
 
If the prices seem too keen, be aware it might be a scam. This is suspicious as the links that worked for you are no longer working. I expect that both pages have been taken down by the web site.

You would be wise to ask what would be most suitable for your needs. There may be someone who knows of a suitable boat in your locality and within your budget.
 
I'm not sure why the links don't work, the adverts are still live. The seller of the Etap sounds genuine and the Folksong is for sale from a Marina. I suspect a technical glitch rather than foul play.

I'm definitely open to suggestions on suitable boats. My budget is around £3,000, I don't mind a boat that requires money spent over time to bring it up to a good standard, something a bit rough but useable is fine, and I accept at my price range 'rough and useable' is a good as I'm likely to get.

I'm looking for something I can learn in but which I won't immediately outgrow, my emphasis is on ease of sailing and practicality rather than speed and pizzazz. I'd like the option to overnight on it occasionally, and I'd like it to be big enough for two adults and 3 (small but noisy) children, plus one large but lazy dog (not necessarily all at the same time - I'm the only one who is willing to enter a confined space with our flatulent lurcher). I like the safety line around the Etap as it can have baby netting rigged to it, so something along those lines in a definite plus. Something I can still solo, but also something with a cockpit big enough that the boys can join in and learn without it being too cramped. I would also prefer to avoid an inboard engine if possible, it's hassle. If an outboard packs up I can take it home to stop down, if an inboard engine goes wrong I'm stuck miles from home having to fix it on site.

I'll be sticking to sheltered Lochs initially on a long term mooring, though I like the idea of a trailer sailer as it's an extra convenience to be able to move the boat by myself (I have a Jeep as a family car which is up to the task). It means I can take the boat out for maintenance or relocate with a bit less faff. I may progress to coastal sailing once I get my confidence up.

From what I have been able to find online it seems the Etap covers all of those bases, I've seen people suggesting Jaguars (21s or 22s?) to people looking for similar boats, also Centaurs, though they tend to be a bit pricier and if I'm honest I'm not a big fan of the Centaur's looks. I love the lines of the Folkboats, but I don't have the time to maintain a wooden boat (and it will be going in fresh water) so the Folksong 25s are a good middle ground as they have the same shape but are fibreglass. I've heard they aren't as comfortable as the Etap, and while they are a bit longer they are narrower, plus they don't look as child friendly as they are a bit sparse on guardrails, so while I prefer their looks they may be a less practical boat for a young family with a farty dog. Any other options I should consider? Open to any and all suggestions.
 
I think you will find a trailer really convenient to tak eit home for maintenance and clean up. Certainly it sounds like the Etap will need a fair bit of clean up. You should not be too afraid of blisters etc as they can be fixed. Much depends on the facilities where you want to sail. Is there a ramp where you can launch and recover the Etap? Do you have room at home. Is there a facility to lift the Folk boat for maintenance? Do you have a car to tow an Etap?
No definitely avoid a wooden boat unless you know you really want wood. If you go for a fin or bilge keel boat that is not trailable you might as well go for bigger/cheaper for size. here is no substitute for size when the weather turns rough or every one is crammed inside.
I bought a trailer sailer 38 years ago and still have it and love it. It is sitting outside my shed at home right now and I have done most of the winter fettling just looking forward to spring and back to the madness. (as I call it lovingly)
good luck ol'will
 
For just a few thousand I will talk you off buying a boat altogether :-). You will love me forever!
Boat is something what people are buying in a fit of a temporary insanity.
Anyway, I am wasting my time, you won't believe me anyway, nobody does... :-)

BOAT - actually an acronym: Bring Often Another Thousand.
Boat - a big hole in the water in which you keep poring money.
Hydrophobia: a pathological fear of water - in many countries considered as basic test of sanity.

Anyway, let me know which of the above I have wrong in a few weeks time! :-)
 
Hi Jordan, yep, that's the Etap, thanks for doing some digging!

I'll try a link to the Folksong again: https://www.apolloduck.com/boat/folksong-25/607391 - let's see if that works.

Will - I have a suitable tow car, and both of the boats I'm looking at come with trailers - I think the Etap would be easier to trundle about, the Folksong has a fixed keel and looks like it would need lifting in and out. The Etap will launch and recover from the trailer.

The plan is to get a mooring on Loch Ken, it's 3 hours from home and is a large Loch (9 miles in length) handy for Dumfries and Galloway. There is a ramp and a nice camp site - the idea is we can go on family camping holidays, there are plenty of holiday activities to do for the nippers, and while we are there we can have days out on the boat - how much we do depends on how they take to it.
I'll also travel up either alone or with one of the kids and we can spend a day or do an overnighter on the boat.

There is a boatyard local to me where I could put a boat to do work on it (mostly canal boats, but I'm sure I could get a sailing boat in there if I asked nicely), though it would be quite a road trip to tow the boat home. Having it outside the house/shed like yours would be ideal but sadly I don't have the space. How is a 38 to tow? Sounds like a fair old size, do you notice much of a difference between something like a 22 and a 38, or are they all much the same once you have them hooked up?
 
Ignore Jiris, he's just a cynic :)

admittedly buying the boat is just like paying the deposit really. The true cost comes when you fall in love with your boat and sailing and every waking moment is spent dreaming about her, and every spare penny in making her more beautiful.

The improvements to your mental (if not financial) health are immesurable, and you will feel closer to the almighty as a consequence.

and your family will either love you for it, or disown you, depending whether they also feel closer to the almighty, or just use his name in vain more when on the boat

enjoy!
 
i think the first questions should be

"where are you going to put it"
"how often are you going to tow it, & how far"

if you need trailer-able then that will take you down one route , if your keeping it in the water on a buoy / marina, the majority of the year that's another route imo
 
Looking at the link to the Etap now, it does seem a genuine boat for sale. It does not seem that bad a condition as the sprayhood and boon cover seem quite clean. To have a road trailer included at this price is a huge bonus. I would certainly go and look at it quickly as the outboard and trailer are worth almost the asking price alone. You should be able to move without any problems to where you want it based. It already being in Scotland is a bonus for you and being so far north will be depressing the price for people from England. Give it a go and the most you can loose is the asking price, but I very much doubt if you will loose very much over a number of years.

My advice would be to check it over very carefully and look for areas of cracking in the fiberglass from any damage. Check for any rot in the bulkheads. Check the keel lifting mechanism and see it there is any great movement on the pivot pin. Check all the electrics and electronics work. The condition of the sails is important, but not for your level of sailing experience. There may be an Etap owners association for additional advice, if not ask further questions on this forum.
 
Concerto said:
Looking at the link to the Etap now, it does seem a genuine boat for sale. It does not seem that bad a condition as the sprayhood and boon cover seem quite clean. To have a road trailer included at this price is a huge bonus. I would certainly go and look at it quickly as the outboard and trailer are worth almost the asking price alone. You should be able to move without any problems to where you want it based. It already being in Scotland is a bonus for you and being so far north will be depressing the price for people from England. Give it a go and the most you can loose is the asking price, but I very much doubt if you will loose very much over a number of years.

My advice would be to check it over very carefully and look for areas of cracking in the fiberglass from any damage. Check for any rot in the bulkheads. Check the keel lifting mechanism and see it there is any great movement on the pivot pin. Check all the electrics and electronics work. The condition of the sails is important, but not for your level of sailing experience. There may be an Etap owners association for additional advice, if not ask further questions on this forum.
Click to expand...

Plus one on this..

Where are you baced at redhand?
 
jiris said:
BOAT - actually an acronym: Bring Often Another Thousand.
Boat - a big hole in the water in which you keep poring money.
Click to expand...
You clearly have a very different experience of boats than most of us, what do you sail? Do you race?
 
Make sure you check the keel winding mechanism on the Etap , it is a weak point
It's a good workout to lift the keel
 
The Etap looks a good buy - I have a 22i and paid a lot more than that a few years ago!. They are very well built solid boats and also have the advantage of a double skin filled with foam which makes for a very dry warm boat and this also acts as bouyancy so they are unsinkable.
Do thoroughly check that the keel lifting mechanism is ok. - difficult without dismantling the tabernacle cover, but if the boat is in the water the keel should raise easily and not be a struggle or need to be forced. It works by a leadscrew that threads through nylon blocks and needs regular maintenance - ie greasing. This can be expensive to sort out if it has been neglected.
The standard outboard is the 8hp 2 stroke yamaha as advertised - this is the only engine that will fit in the well easily as the "plug" is made to fit it. If you need a different engine then it may need some modification to the well so worth checking the engine is ok - brilliant engine but obviously being a 2 stroke they are getting old.

As far as trailing is concerned it is the sort of boat that is trailerable - ie great to take home at the end of the season but you wouldn't want to do it every time you went sailing. Is there any mast lifting gear with it?

Unfortunately the Etap Owners Assn website is no longer, but there is an active Facebook group which has some useful advice.

Sounds a reasonable buy but do check the above points!
 
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Thanks for the replies - I've been doing my homework today on moorings. I'm based near Liverpool, so had a look at the Menai Strait and also Ullswater/Windermere, but I keep coming back to Loch Ken. It is a 3 hour drive, but I had lots of childhood holidays around Dumfries and Galloway and I know it's a great place to take the family. I also want to avoid anywhere too busy and from visits to Windermere, eeesh! Then there's the prices! So it looks like Loch Ken is the top of the list for now - with it being trailerable I like the fact I can move somewhere else easily enough in future if I want to.

Handily, I work offshore flying out of Aberdeen, so when I come home on Thursday I am making a detour. So long as it's a tidy boat with nothing obvious the matter I'll be buying it (and explaining myself to the wife at a later date...).

I've done some reading on the Etaps, and spoken to the seller, who says the keel was inspected and painted last year, and the turn screw was greased. He didn't take the keel off, and I believe they can corrode at the part of the keel that remains within the hull when fully extended, but there is apparently a viewing window to check, so I'll be sure to ask about that. No doubt after all these years it will be opaque with gunge.

I noticed the advert says 'the sails are said to be in a satisfactory condition' and while the engine is present, there is no mention of its condition or service history, so if I had to guess on where the less good points fo the boat are, it's those, and the sea toilet which has leaking seals - I'll just remove that and use a portapotty I think, as I'll be on a Loch.

Thank you all for taking the time to give such useful advice and pointers, and keep it coming! I'll let you know how I get on on Thursday.
 
RedRightHand said:
I'm looking to get into sailing as a family activity
Click to expand...

Is your family also keen?

I don't want to dampen your enthusiasm, but be realistic about it. Both the boats you mention would be considered by most these days to be too small for a family. They're not, of course: a few decades ago they would have been normal, even generously sized and kitted out, but expectations have changed enormously. Only if your family thinks camping and such-like is fun are they likely to find these boats acceptable.

Do not be deceived by the number of berths. Most builders put too many in - you wouldn't want to be on the boat when everyone stands up. Where are you going to put everyone's clothes, etc. etc.? Is there actually room for all in the cockpit when the tiller and winches are in use?

You have homed in on two boats that are quite different to one another, which suggests to me that perhaps you are not clear about your criteria. (Note that some (all?) Folksongs have the mainsheet track across the bridge deck - not very safe/convenient for kids going in and out of the cabin, in my view.) I'd suggest you go to look at few other boats before making up your mind, though that's not advice I've always followed myself! :o

Good luck with your search, and happy sailing.

p.s. A six hour round trip to Loch Ken doesn't sound very family friendly. I suspect you'll be sailing alone.
 
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