Fingerprints and the new EU Entry Exit system

[Poignard]

And yet here you are commenting on it as if you did understand. This is precisely the problem, the people who don't understand greatly outnumber the people who do understand, and so we have an inevitable slip into losing our freedom and rights.

Alright, let me put it another way, why would anyone object to doing something which does not harm them and which may benefit others?

 

[Sandy]

Reading this stuff, I wonder how many sailors have actually cleared themselves, yacht and crew into foreign countries?

An awful lot of sailor rarely make it past Portland Bill, usually due to the dragons.

 

[lustyd]

Alright, let me put it another way, why would anyone object to doing something which does not harm them and which may benefit others?

Various reasons, many of which are borne of the fact that just because you don't understand the harm doesn't mean it's not harmful. As a good start, how about the fact that a giant database of fingerprints destroys the idea of innocent until proven guilty? If your fingerprints or DNA are found at a crime scene, it's on you to show that you didn't do it. The US has countless examples of this. Then there's the tracking issue as scope creep will ensure scanners start turning up in more and more locations to "keep you safe". Personally I'd take an afternoon of pointless bureacracy over a thumb scan and the loss of liberty any day of the week.
And these benefits of which you speak, are you referring to the reduction in border staff and reliance on extremely flawed technology? If fingerprints are relied on then illegal immigration will become much simpler. Some superglue, a bag and some gummi bears will defeat pretty much every scanner on the market.

 

[Poignard]

Various reasons, many of which are borne of the fact that just because you don't understand the harm doesn't mean it's not harmful. As a good start, how about the fact that a giant database of fingerprints destroys the idea of innocent until proven guilty? If your fingerprints or DNA are found at a crime scene, it's on you to show that you didn't do it. The US has countless examples of this. Then there's the tracking issue as scope creep will ensure scanners start turning up in more and more locations to "keep you safe". Personally I'd take an afternoon of pointless bureacracy over a thumb scan and the loss of liberty any day of the week.
And these benefits of which you speak, are you referring to the reduction in border staff and reliance on extremely flawed technology? If fingerprints are relied on then illegal immigration will become much simpler. Some superglue, a bag and some gummi bears will defeat pretty much every scanner on the market.

Oh for God's sake, I can't be doing with this nonsense!

 

[capnsensible]

Oh for God's sake, I can't be doing with this nonsense!

Countries taking control of their own borders, eh? What sailor would have thought that would happen?

 

[lustyd]

Oh for God's sake, I can't be doing with this nonsense!

Indeed. If you can't be arsed learning the topic then probably best not to tell people it's all fine.

 

[Poignard]

Indeed. If you can't be arsed learning the topic then probably best not to tell people it's all fine.

I'd like to know exactly what sort of society you would like to live in. Can you describe it? Is there an example you can point to, from history or the present day?

 

[lustyd]

Countries taking control of their own borders, eh? What sailor would have thought that would happen?

Adding some theatre and tech toys to the check in process doesn't change the border controls though. It just makes it look like they might be taking control in order to placate the plebs. As a by product the only people whose experience will change in a measurable way will be those who accidentally go over their 90 days and get barred from the continent, since now it can be measured automatically without the human element or possibility of an explanation and a quiet stamp in the book. No more debates about whether the weather is safe to leave in, computer says GO.

 

[capnsensible]

Adding some theatre and tech toys to the check in process doesn't change the border controls though. It just makes it look like they might be taking control in order to placate the plebs. As a by product the only people whose experience will change in a measurable way will be those who accidentally go over their 90 days and get barred from the continent, since now it can be measured automatically without the human element or possibility of an explanation and a quiet stamp in the book. No more debates about whether the weather is safe to leave in, computer says GO.

Yeah never mind GPS, stick with the sextant...

 

[lustyd]

Yeah never mind GPS, stick with the sextant...

Trust me, the technology isn't what I have issues with. GPS can't really be abused to impact individuals without their consent. Not boat GPS anyway.

 

[capnsensible]

Trust me, the technology isn't what I have issues with. GPS can't really be abused to impact individuals without their consent. Not boat GPS anyway.

Wrap tin foil round your mobile. I've seen wikileaks.......

Couple of weeks ago, I sailed from Lanzarote to Madeira and back. The information about jabs and covid clearance post infection made the difference between us all clearing in or getting told to bog off. I've actually been denied access to US Virgin Islands over a visa issue so I know its a pain. So that's technology inaction for my benefit.

Tomorrow I'm flying from Lanza to Tenefife North. My residents card complete with picture and fingerprint stored on it means I get easy booking, boarding and 75% discount on the flight price.

Two instances of many where the sailor is helped to have a better life.

This particular genie has been out of the bottle for decades and about time too.

 

[lustyd]

Oh it's all smashing when it's going in your favour. Quick entry and exit, no need for stamps. And then there's that one time it doesn't go your way and you get detained because your finger was in the wrong place at the wrong time. This whole thing isn't about passport control, it's about building a giant database of fingerprints.
I'm not paranoid, I'm an expert in the field.

 

[Black Sheep]

And then there's that one time it doesn't go your way and you get detained because your finger was in the wrong place at the wrong time.

To be fair, it doesn't even need to have been your finger in the wrong place, but another finger that was a close enough match that the system thinks it's yours.

 

[capnsensible]

I suppose putting your finger in a wrong place is always gonna be risky.

However, I fully respect the views of someone with expertise.

My fingerprints..index finger....are stored in the Spanish National Database and on my resident card. I've thus far only hadto do facial recognition using the machines at UK border control. Not digits. It has made things easy.

I'm intrigued about the mis use of fingerprint information though and understand if you cannot reveal much. The wikileaks stuff was mostly a whoosh for me but I kinda get the idea about crunching big bits of information.

 

[lustyd]

To be fair, it doesn't even need to have been your finger in the wrong place, but another finger that was a close enough match that the system thinks it's yours.

There are a plethora of cases in the States where it was the full print but from someone else. The idea that fingerprints are unique was reasonable in a time when there were fewer people on the planet but it was proven otherwise many years ago. It's not like DNA is unique either, any twin can tell you that. Without full sequencing there are many cases of "close enough is close enough" too.

I'm intrigued about the mis use of fingerprint information though

It's better to just assume it's fine in cases where it's already in. There's no way to fight it if you need to get in to the States for instance. What is worth while is pushing back against new uses and instances where governments overstep the mark. Covid passports seemed a good idea on the surface but really were evil when you think them through.

 

[Graham376]

Covid passports seemed a good idea on the surface but really were evil when you think them through.

Why are they evil? I have no problem with them except having realised how easy it is to fake tests, know they can't be relied on. In common with residents of many countries, my ID card has fingerprint and photo and my passport has facial recognition.

 

[lustyd]

We can’t really discuss those in this forum but their issues are widely documented.

 

[Sandy]

I'm not paranoid, I'm an expert in the field.

Please tell us more I love listening to experts in their fields.

 

[steveinnice]

Please tell us more I love listening to experts in their fields.

 

[Frogmogman]

Covid passports seemed a good idea on the surface but really were evil when you think them through.

Evil is a pretty emotive word to describe Covid passports. In France, at least, their raison d’être was about motivating the vaccine reluctant to get on and be vaccinated, and it has been pretty successful at achieving this.

What is rather more sinister when it comes to Covid passports is the role of certain social media platforms in steering people who have shown an online interest in anti-vax material towards sites that will sell them counterfeit passes. A study by the ISD has shown the likes of Instagram and Facebook to be enablers on this score, their algorithms actually recommending accounts offering fake sanitary or vaccination services, so if you are a person who has displayed an interest in Covid disinformation or anti-vax content, the algorithms will recommend more accounts offering fake passes.

I’m really not that concerned about the government having my fingerprints, whereas the nefarious activities of some platforms on the web, and the data that they gather and store about us seems to me way more sinister.