Filling gas bottles.

Camping Gaz, like every other cylinder has the safe working pressure stamped on them. In the case of CG, the stamping is on the bottom ring. Most cylinders are 17.5 barg, but some older cylinders may still be in service. Anything tested to more than 12barg is suitable for Propane.
Someone asked what the cylinders are pressure tested with, it's kerosene, because it stops the steel corroding
 
Its an urban myth that camping gaz cylinders cant take propane. I have a 907 that I exchanged in Spain that is clearly stamped on the bottom Butane 3.0 Kg Propane 2.5 Kg PE 30 Bar. On the outside it is marked 2.7kg. I presume the spec on the base is the maximum capacity hence the lower figure for propane which is higher pressure.

I believe PE refers to the pressure rating that the cylinder is constructed to and not plastic explosive - but could be wrong! I have had it refilled in Morocco on many an occasion and they do it from a roadside pump. At times it seems to burn slowly and the explanation I have been given is that they fill them with propane on the cheap, and the flow of gas is restricted by the standard camping gaz regulator which is designed for butane at 28 Mbar?.

Propane is also sold in many camping shops for Coleman stoves etc, and comes in the same type of pretty flimsy cartridge that you get for the the cheap ten quid cookers you find in Asda and Halfords etc. I think we would all agree that the 907 is a way more solid beast, but this has nothing to do with the pressure of the gas, but in that it is designed to be banged around, left outdoors for months at a time, and even withstand fire for a while?
 
Just done my first fill! A 13 kg Calor donor to a 2.7 kg Campingaz 907. The parts I used were purchased from Hamilton Gas, one of these;

http://www.gasproducts.co.uk/acatalog/copy_of_Campingaz_Cylinder_Adaptor.html#aGAZ1

and one of these;

http://www.gasproducts.co.uk/acatal...ane_Gas_Pigtail_Butane_Nut_x_W20.html#aHA9665

Total cost: 12.48 GBP + 3.95 GBP postage = 16.43 GBP

Noting the many learned safety concerns posted on this thread I conducted the whole process outside (last night, in the rain!) and wore gloves as a precaution although I have to say that the whole procedure was much faster and easier than I had been led to expect, and apart from the necessity of emptying the hose at the end, no leakage at all of liquid or gas.

For those you who may be interested, and to allay concern, the procedure I adopted was as follows;

1. I stored the 13kg donor in my garage in the warm, leaving the 2.7 kg 907 outside overnight.

2. Before inverting the 13 kg donor I warmed it with hot water from a kettle, the cylinder wrapped in a towel.

3. I weighed the 907 on a set of digital scales ( I checked accuracy with 1 litre of water weighing in at 1 kg) to check the empty weight, which at 3. 7 kg was close to the 3.64 kg tare weight stamped on the outside of the cylinder. To make doubly sure I opened the valve fully ( there was a slight hiss) and left it to drain any excess gas into the open (yes - I dont smoke, but still took care not to light up a fag!).

4. I connected the two and inverted the donor, I then opened the valve on the donor first, finally opening the valve on the bottom cylinder. Much to my surprise, as I had been expecting a 30 min or so process, I could hear quite audibly the sound of the liquid LPG from the donar rushing into the 907, and within 3 mins, my scales showed the 907 to be at 5.7 kg weight - near enough to its supposed safe 'full' weight (80%) of 6.0 kg for me.

5. To continue the experiment however I did leave it for a further 20 mins checking the weight regularly to see if the final 0.3 kg would fill,but it stubbornly refused to go beyond the 5.7kg mark ( which some of the more learned on here might explain??) however I was happy as I was well within my self set safety margin, and had a nearly full 907 to boot.

6. Finally the old problem of the filled up hose! Again taking advice from posts on here, I closed the top valve first so leaving me with gas in the hose rather than liquid I so hoped. Next I closed the bottom valve and then unscrewed the adaptor from the 907 by rotating he cylinder. There was no release of gas. Now i was able to point the hose still connected to the closed top cylinder in a safe direction and opening the tap on the 907 adapter released the remaining gas under control in a safe direction into the open air.

The result? I now have a nearly full 907, as well as a remaining reserve of 10.04kg (I weighed it after) in the donor tank. I now intend to fill my other two 907's in the same manner which will hopefully be enough to see the winter out. The cost? Well the full Calor 13kg bottle cost me 25.49 GBP from my local gardening center, which works out at 1.96 GBP per .kg. so to fill my 907 to near completion cost me 4.90 GBP for 2.5 kg of gas, rather than the 22.97 GBP per refill I otherwise would be charged - my couple of little bits from Hamilton have paid for themselves.

Finally, no apologies for the essay. I had wanted to do this for ages, because like a lot of us Im really p**sed off by the outrageous prices that Campingaz charge. Also, in order to ensure safety, I did a lot of research before conducting my little 'experiment', and incorporated a lot of good tips from many on this forum, as well as other camping and motorhome sites which I visited as well . In short, my aim only to share my experience with those of you out there who just might be thinking of doing the same.

Matt
 
Weigh the bottle to make sure that it is not overfilled. I deliberately left mine slightly under filled.
Click to expand...

When we went cruising we had our own horizontal bottle that we got refilled anywhere we could. Generally it was from someone who decanted it from a larger bottle.

We always got our fill at the end of the day when the temperature was dropping. We never worried about over filling but made sure there was a bake of bread ready to go in the oven once we got back on board. By the time the sun came up next day, we had a gap at the top of the cylinder and two loaves of fresh baked bread.
 
pongoglo said:
Just done my first fill! A 13 kg Calor donor to a 2.7 kg Campingaz 907. The parts I used were purchased from Hamilton Gas, one of these;

http://www.gasproducts.co.uk/acatalog/copy_of_Campingaz_Cylinder_Adaptor.html#aGAZ1

and one of these;

http://www.gasproducts.co.uk/acatal...ane_Gas_Pigtail_Butane_Nut_x_W20.html#aHA9665

Total cost: 12.48 GBP + 3.95 GBP postage = 16.43 GBP


Matt
Click to expand...

Thanks Matt, I've been thinking about this for ages, may now pluck up the courage and buy the bits. Can I just confirm that your donor bottle is propane and you are filling a butane bottle?
 
alahol2 said:
Thanks Matt, I've been thinking about this for ages, may now pluck up the courage and buy the bits. Can I just confirm that your donor bottle is propane and you are filling a butane bottle?
Click to expand...

Yes, I was filling a standard Campingaz 907 from a Calor propane bottle. The 907 is not actually a butane bottle as such. In the UK Campingaz fill it with a butane propane mix, but on the continent and elsewhere in the world it is common for them to be filled with whatever is available, which is normally propane. It is rated to 30 Bar so can easily handle both. I acquired mine in Spain and it has 2.5 kg propane 2.7 kg butane stamped on the bottom. I actually linked to the wrong bit of kit, to connect the propane 13 kg Calor bottle to a 2.7kg Campingaz type 907 you actually need this;

http://www.gasproducts.co.uk/acatalog/copy_of_35__Propane_Gas_Pigtail_POL_x_W20.html#aHA685

a standard propane POL connector on one end and a butane W20 on the other. I would recommend the 35 inch one as this worked well for me allowing for the height of the cylinder and a standard workbench which I used to support the inverted cylinder on top.

You will of course still need one of these;

http://www.gasproducts.co.uk/acatalog/copy_of_Campingaz_Cylinder_Adaptor.html

which as I said before is the key to making the whole thing work.

I have seen bottles refilled on many an occasion on my travels, and in most parts of the world they just simply dont do exchange, but this is the first time id done it myself, and have to say it is an easy process once performed the once. My description is deliberately detailed, but actually the process is simple and doesn't take any time at all. As I said I did it outside for my trial run, and this would be my best advice, but that aside its simple and safe.

Matt
 
Rigger Mortice said:
I’m going to do a bit more work and, frankly, I need to also check if this is legal,
Click to expand...

Dont bother. There will be some law or other which could be used against you, but first of all they have to know. So unless there is a loud boom and you prescribe a neat arc over the conservatory roof, you will likely escape censure.

I fill my bottles the same way.
 
I have filled / decanted propane from one cylinder to another many times and also filled proane cylinders from an autogas roadside filling station pump, all very easy and safe provided you take sensible precautions.

When decanting from one large propane cylinder to a smaller cylinder the initial transfer of liquid gas is fairly quick because the receiving cylinder is at atmospheric pressure when empty and the donor is at a much higher pressure due to the liquid gas inside, until the pressure in both bottles is equal the transfer of liquid gas will be done by the higher pressure in the donor bottle. Once pressure is equal in both bottles the transfer of liquid gas is only due to gravity because the liquid gas is heavier than the gas it is trying to replace in the receiving cylinder, hence this last phase can take a considerable amount of time - especially since the various connectors, valves and hoses only have fairly small orifices since they are all designed to transfer gas not liquid. I have found that gently agitating / shaking the hose and receiving bottle will greatly speed up the transfer rate during the gravity transfer phase - it helps to get the liquid through the smaller orifices and/or aids the crossover of liquid and gas through the pipes and valves.

Obviously you need to keep monitoring the weight of the receiving cylinder to prevent overfilling but it is still a fairly slow process so easy to keep an eye on things. I can fill a 3.6kg cylinder from an 11kg donor in about 30mins using the above method.
 
For filling 907 Camping Gaz with Butane, I have been told that one can either weigh the receiving bottle to determine when it is full, or that there is the following method.

Put the receiving bottle in water, the bottle will float when empty.
As it gets filled, it will sink little by little. When it becomes neutral (does not float nor sink, sort of), then it is filled by the proper amount of gas. filling can be stopped.
It would mean the correct amount of butane plus the weight of the empty bottle is equal to the floatation of a full bottle.

Can anyone confirm this ?
 
Roberto said:
For filling 907 Camping Gaz with Butane, I have been told that one can either weigh the receiving bottle to determine when it is full, or that there is the following method.

Put the receiving bottle in water, the bottle will float when empty.
As it gets filled, it will sink little by little. When it becomes neutral (does not float nor sink, sort of), then it is filled by the proper amount of gas. filling can be stopped.
It would mean the correct amount of butane plus the weight of the empty bottle is equal to the floatation of a full bottle.

Can anyone confirm this ?
Click to expand...

I don't have the volume of a 907 cyl. but you are buying 2.72kg butane and it has a known density. So you should be able to work it out as shown below (very different conclusion for propane of course).

1) Density of liquid butane is around 600 gms/litre
2) A "fill" is 2.72kg = 4.5 litres (approx.) volume
3) Cyls. Aren’t full (I think it might be around 80% for safety)
4) So that would mean a full cyl. has an internal volume of around 5.7 litres
5) Empy cyl. Weighs around 3.3kg. (I weighed one last year when I was sold an underfilled one)
6) It would need 2.4kg extra weight to sink an empty cyl. in fresh water (5.7-3.3)
7) Cyl. Holds 2.72kg. So 2.4kg would underfill

BUT I'VE GUESSED THE CYL. VOLUME BASED ON 80% FILL.

I do know that some butane cyls. are only filled to 80% but Camping Gaz might be a bit more. I'd have thought it unlikely but it is a crucial point.

If anyone can confirm the 80% level then it should be OK (unless the above logic is wrong).
If anyone can confirm the internal volume of a 907 cylinder and the tare wt. then it becomes easy to calculate.

Why not try a full one in a bucket of water? If it floats then your plan won't work and if it sinks you should be safe with one that just sinks when filled.
 
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In post 45- (can't make the pics appear)


Those to items do not fit together- the GAZ adapter has a LH thread and the pigtail has a RH female nut.

(A suitable LH ring nut must be sourced, one off an old calor butane regulator is suitable. However, you need to remove the crimp on the hose to remove it, swap the nuts then replace hose with a jubilee clip)

Not that I have any first hand experience of this procedure whatsoever........

N

[/QUOTE]
 
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Mistroma said:
I don't have the volume of a 907 cyl. but you are buying 2.72kg butane and it has a known density. So you should be able to work it out as shown below (very different conclusion for propane of course).

1) Density of liquid butane is around 600 gms/litre
2) A "fill" is 2.72kg = 4.5 litres (approx.) volume
3) Cyls. Aren’t full (I think it might be around 80% for safety)
4) So that would mean a full cyl. has an internal volume of around 5.7 litres
5) Empy cyl. Weighs around 3.3kg. (I weighed one last year when I was sold an underfilled one)
6) It would need 2.4kg extra weight to sink an empty cyl. in fresh water (5.7-3.3)
7) Cyl. Holds 2.72kg. So 2.4kg would underfill

BUT I'VE GUESSED THE CYL. VOLUME BASED ON 80% FILL.

I do know that some butane cyls. are only filled to 80% but Camping Gaz might be a bit more. I'd have thought it unlikely but it is a crucial point.

If anyone can confirm the 80% level then it should be OK (unless the above logic is wrong).
If anyone can confirm the internal volume of a 907 cylinder and the tare wt. then it becomes easy to calculate.

Why not try a full one in a bucket of water? If it floats then your plan won't work and if it sinks you should be safe with one that just sinks when filled.
Click to expand...


I just went to the local shop and on the circular base plate I found stamped "6l", six liters, it does not say if it is outside or inside volume, presumably inside ?

I will definitely try to put one of my full bottles in the water and see what happens, though they are in the boat and can only do that next spring.

If this method is correct, then by filling the bucket with water and ice chunks the bottle might probably fill more quickly.
 
Roberto said:
I just went to the local shop and on the circular base plate I found stamped "6l", six liters, it does not say if it is outside or inside volume, presumably inside ?

I will definitely try to put one of my full bottles in the water and see what happens, though they are in the boat and can only do that next spring.

If this method is correct, then by filling the bucket with water and ice chunks the bottle might probably fill more quickly.
Click to expand...

It will almost certainly be internal volume but the cyl. wall won't be very thick so I doubt there'd be a huge difference.

I've thought of a problem with trying to work this out from first principles. I seem to remember reading (might even have been this thread) that butane cyls. actually contain a small amount of propane mixed with butane. This would make the density much less that for pure butane. If you can find the density of that mix and cyl. is 6 litres in volume it would be easy to do the calculation. But I suspect the easiest way to confirm and set your mind at rest is to try floating a full cylinder. I must try to do this next year out of interest.
 
I did it !!! I refilled two 907 camping gaz bottles from a calor 11 kg bottle. Its true they sink when full ! the first was quite quick but the second one was very slow. I placed the donor cylinder in some hot water and the receiving cylinder in cold, both were weighed and on completion both weighed 6.7 kg

a considerable saving I will be doing it again !!
 
mcalan said:
I did it !!! I refilled two 907 camping gaz bottles from a calor 11 kg bottle. Its true they sink when full ! the first was quite quick but the second one was very slow. I placed the donor cylinder in some hot water and the receiving cylinder in cold, both were weighed and on completion both weighed 6.7 kg

a considerable saving I will be doing it again !!
Click to expand...

Could you clarify? I haven't been back to the boat yet, but my plan was to weigh empty and full 907 cyls. and check buoyancy of a full one in a bucket of fresh water.

It sounds as if you just filled a couple of cylinders until they sank and then weighed them. Both weighed 6.7kgs which doesn't actually tell you if they are overfilled or not. It does provide an easy method of filling them with approx. same amount of gas. Apologies if I've not understood this correctly.

I did find some notes from last year and 2 cyls. had tare wts. of 3.4 and 3.7kg. Assuming a normal charge is 2.72kg that would make total weight of around 6.1 - 6.4 kgs. That could indicate 10%-20% more gas than normal in the cylinders. However, I'd need to recheck weights on my own cyls. to be certain.
 
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Mistroma said:
Could you clarify? I haven't been back to the boat yet, but my plan was to weigh empty and full 907 cyls. and check buoyancy of a full one in a bucket of fresh water.

It sounds as if you just filled a couple of cylinders until they sank and then weighed them. Both weighed 6.7kgs which doesn't actually tell you if they are overfilled or not. It does provide an easy method of filling them with approx. same amount of gas. Apologies if I've not understood this correctly.

I did find some notes from last year and 2 cyls. had tare wts. of 3.4 and 3.7kg. Assuming a normal charge is 2.72kg that would make total weight of around 6.1 - 6.4 kgs. That could indicate 10%-20% more gas than normal in the cylinders. However, I'd need to recheck weights on my own cyls. to be certain.
Click to expand...

I think you are right 6.7kg is a little overfilled

Normal charge is as you say 2.72kg. The tare weights vary a little in the range you suggest but they are marked ... if you can decipher the markings!
 
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