lustyd
Well-known member
A shop? So it's a no to a reputable source then.
Fill her up ??
- Thread starter Halo
- Start date
Halo
Well-known member
I think the shop is very reputable and have met the proprietor who has a long history of boats and sailing. Why not look at the information provided in the article and comment on that rather than working on blind prejudice and being so totally cynical ??
lustyd
Well-known member
Firstly, you didn't provide a link, so I have no idea what article you're talking about. Secondly, I wouldn't trust someone trying to sell me something about a problem most people don't have, it's like asking a drug dealer if crack is addictive. Finally, if there were reputable evidence available, you'd be referencing it rather than the article, so I can only assume they didn't provide reputable sources either - why would I waste my time?
Biggles Wader
Well-known member
Its not compulsory. Move on to another if you dont like this thread.
lustyd
Well-known member
I’m fine with the thread. Happy to be the voice of reason when people make things up.
Halo
Well-known member
Now you are accusing me of making things up !!
Heaven help us if you are the voice of reason.
I have sent you the article in case you are remotely interested in the subject. I will not say anything else about this subject but will send the information to those who want it
thinwater
Well-known member
The last Top Tip is 455. No 470 that I can find, though the last post was June, so there are probably more.
They sell some good additives (I've testing many in the laband field), and while most are good, at least one is snake oil.
My favorite lay-up method is to sail year round (yes, it freezes here, sometimes -5 to -10 C). Keeps the fuel fresh, among other things. In the winter I try to pick the nice days!
They sell some good additives (I've testing many in the laband field), and while most are good, at least one is snake oil.
My favorite lay-up method is to sail year round (yes, it freezes here, sometimes -5 to -10 C). Keeps the fuel fresh, among other things. In the winter I try to pick the nice days!
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Poignard
Well-known member
I have had my boat for 26 years. Sometimes the tank is full when she is laid up, other times it isn't.
I have never had problems with my BUKH engine that could be attributed to water in the fuel tank, and I have never noticed any water in the separator bowl.
I have never had problems with my BUKH engine that could be attributed to water in the fuel tank, and I have never noticed any water in the separator bowl.
NormanS
Well-known member
My fuel tanks have wee sumps with drain valves, so none of this messing about trying to suck water and dirt out.
Graham376
Well-known member
Different engine but same with me. Majority of our tank contents (road diesel) now 4 years old and engine runs fine.
lustyd
Well-known member
Thanks, read the article and replied. There are no reputable facts, links or research there, just a fuel treatment company confidently saying you should buy their stuff.
We’re several days in and not a single reputable bit of information has been provided, so while you may not have made it up, you do appear to be spreading doubt and uncertainty based on rumour.
Bob@SYH
Member
I know that there's been talk of this before on the forum, but it would appear to be relevant to mention it again
I don't profess to be a petrochemist and as such I struggled to fully understand some of the research papers that are available on the subject, however from both first hand experience and some 'online research', it appears that the cause of the sludge issue found in increasing cases (including as referred to in the OP) is caused by asphaltenes (Asphaltene - Wikipedia) falling out of solution or emulsifying (again you'll have to forgive my technical 'wordery'). It would appear that there is an obvious difference between 'Diesel Bug' and the formation of Asphaltene particle sludge and the causes of it.
There are many many articles on the subject easily available on Google, of which the vast majority are indeed 'sponsored' by fuel treatment manufacturers, however with a bit of digging, there are what appear to be articles of independent research on the subject. With the best intention I've linked what appear to be some of the most relevant below
https://www.petro-online.com/articl...proach-to-marine-fuel-standards/2815/download
Asphaltene's and Plugged Fuel Filters
Asphaltenes in Fuel
https://www.e3s-conferences.org/articles/e3sconf/pdf/2021/42/e3sconf_ti2021_02006.pdf
Asphaltenes and waxes
Again I fully admit some of the above links very quickly exceed my elementary O'level chemistry understanding and as such I'm not in the position to get into great debate about it, however I hope that those with a better grasp of such things may extract more useful information.
(edit: for anyone wanting to look into it further, googling 'asphaltene precipitation' brings up more results with fewer sponsored results)
I don't profess to be a petrochemist and as such I struggled to fully understand some of the research papers that are available on the subject, however from both first hand experience and some 'online research', it appears that the cause of the sludge issue found in increasing cases (including as referred to in the OP) is caused by asphaltenes (Asphaltene - Wikipedia) falling out of solution or emulsifying (again you'll have to forgive my technical 'wordery'). It would appear that there is an obvious difference between 'Diesel Bug' and the formation of Asphaltene particle sludge and the causes of it.
There are many many articles on the subject easily available on Google, of which the vast majority are indeed 'sponsored' by fuel treatment manufacturers, however with a bit of digging, there are what appear to be articles of independent research on the subject. With the best intention I've linked what appear to be some of the most relevant below
https://www.petro-online.com/articl...proach-to-marine-fuel-standards/2815/download
Asphaltene's and Plugged Fuel Filters
Asphaltenes in Fuel
https://www.e3s-conferences.org/articles/e3sconf/pdf/2021/42/e3sconf_ti2021_02006.pdf
Asphaltenes and waxes
Again I fully admit some of the above links very quickly exceed my elementary O'level chemistry understanding and as such I'm not in the position to get into great debate about it, however I hope that those with a better grasp of such things may extract more useful information.
(edit: for anyone wanting to look into it further, googling 'asphaltene precipitation' brings up more results with fewer sponsored results)
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thinwater
Well-known member
Read the article. That manufacturer is notorious for their infomercial ads, and the testing I performed (draft ASTM methods) favored other products.
You didn't name drop, so I won't, but don't believe manufacturer infomercials.
---
As for the discussion of full vs. empty, credible sources will argue it both way. Gasoline vs. diesel has different issues (e10 activly draws water and gasoline evaporates). The most important things are a tight seal on the filler, a vent that can't take water in rough conditions, and to run the engine enough that it does not die of disuse.
If the diesel contains FAME I would run the tank down, use a silica gel vent filter, and run the engine as often as practical.
lustyd
Well-known member
I'm curious, how often are you replacing the silica gel that's open to atmosphere? Seems a similar discussion to the dehumidifier with the door open problem to me.
thinwater
Well-known member
Silica gel vent filters (H2OUT is the brand I have used, but I have tested others) lasts several years. Since it is well down the pipe, there is not much air movement through the gel, and one side is (obviously) dry. Not the same situation.
The gel can also be regenerated in about 20 minutes by heating on a low flame on the stove. Stir and watch for the color change. Yes, you could do it in an oven, but it would stink. To reduce the stink, leave the gel in the open until it is fully changed color, which pushes all the diesel out. Same when regenerating gel used with petrol.
In fact, vent filters are far more helpful with petrol than diesel, because ...
The gel can also be regenerated in about 20 minutes by heating on a low flame on the stove. Stir and watch for the color change. Yes, you could do it in an oven, but it would stink. To reduce the stink, leave the gel in the open until it is fully changed color, which pushes all the diesel out. Same when regenerating gel used with petrol.
In fact, vent filters are far more helpful with petrol than diesel, because ...
- E10 actively absorbs water.
- Curiously, the ethanol helps scrub the inside portion of the filter, pushing water back out and extending life.
- Vent filters drastically reduce evaporation. Even if you don't care about air polution, you should care about keeping the most volitile portions of the fuel, which ease cold starting. They also save enough fuel, over time, to pay for themselves (I measured this).
- Wet e10 is a serious carb corrosion problem, the cause of most carb clogging (not varnish, not any more).
Halo
Well-known member
I know I said I would not comment further but feel I should.
Firstly the official government paper below spells out the requirement for UK diesel to contain increasing levels of biofuel
https://assets.publishing.service.g...37149/RTFO_Compliance_Guidance_2023_Final.pdf
Secondly the most authoritative international body on lube and fuel is the Society of Automotive Engineers whose SAE standards used are all over the world
The SAE paper “ Storage Stability of FAME Blended Diesel Fuels 2008-01-2505”
States
“ The cold flow properties of PME-blended diesel fuels, such as cold flow plugging point (CFPP) and pour point, deteriorated during the low-temperature storage; this led to deterioration of the drivability of vehicles using this type of diesel. Furthermore, in the PME-blended diesel fuels, crystals of saturated fatty acid glyceride were formed during normal-temperature storage (10 to 15 °C) above the cloud point (CP) of the fuels. “
This paper shows that there is a problem with storing new diesel and precipitation does occur at normal temperatures.
The fact that some very respected formites have not had a problem for 30 years does not mean that a problem does not exist because the first 27 years of experience were not using modern diesel.
So it may , just may, be worth wintering with a low tank level!
Firstly the official government paper below spells out the requirement for UK diesel to contain increasing levels of biofuel
https://assets.publishing.service.g...37149/RTFO_Compliance_Guidance_2023_Final.pdf
Secondly the most authoritative international body on lube and fuel is the Society of Automotive Engineers whose SAE standards used are all over the world
The SAE paper “ Storage Stability of FAME Blended Diesel Fuels 2008-01-2505”
States
“ The cold flow properties of PME-blended diesel fuels, such as cold flow plugging point (CFPP) and pour point, deteriorated during the low-temperature storage; this led to deterioration of the drivability of vehicles using this type of diesel. Furthermore, in the PME-blended diesel fuels, crystals of saturated fatty acid glyceride were formed during normal-temperature storage (10 to 15 °C) above the cloud point (CP) of the fuels. “
This paper shows that there is a problem with storing new diesel and precipitation does occur at normal temperatures.
The fact that some very respected formites have not had a problem for 30 years does not mean that a problem does not exist because the first 27 years of experience were not using modern diesel.
So it may , just may, be worth wintering with a low tank level!
Sandy
Well-known member
I wish they would define 'low temperature storage' in terms of temperature and time.
lustyd
Well-known member
All we asked for was reputable sources. That's taken two days, but here we are and can have a more useful discussion as a result. Anecdotal evidence that it's fine should also be questioned, but only once evidence of an actual problem is presented. In this case, the overwhelming number of people who have been fine suggested that those with problems were doing something wrong, weren't careful, or bought bad fuel - essentially user error. With some evidence to the problem, we can now assume those without problems have been running on luck, or using fuel sufficiently fast.
Regardless, age of fuel cannot be a problem, or topping up at any time will be an issue just as topping up a milk jug would be if not emptying and cleaning between uses. If the gunk is due to age then surely all our tanks will gradually suffer.
B27
Well-known member
It's not claret is it?
It's not going to improve with keeping.
It can only get worse.
You need enough in your tank to not run out or draw air into the system, but beyond that, the less the better.
It's good to put in what I'm likely to use this month and know my fuel is 80% new and fresh.
I've seen a few tanks with various dirt in them, dealing with 10 litres of dirty diesel is easier than dealing with 70 litres.
A lot to be said for emptying tank and cleaning it every few years.
Another thing is, the asphaltene process is alleged to be catalysed by brass and copper.
There is a lot wrong with a traditional yacht fuel system compared to a diesel car.
Among our local bunch of yacht owners is a bloke who runs a garage. He's cut open a few diesel filters from cars, it's common to find some water and various 'black stuff'. The car tanks are usually pretty good at getting water into the filter instead of leaving it mixing with the fuel though. A lot of older yachts can carry a lot of water in the bottom of the tank, a big interface where 'stuff grows'.
It's not going to improve with keeping.
It can only get worse.
You need enough in your tank to not run out or draw air into the system, but beyond that, the less the better.
It's good to put in what I'm likely to use this month and know my fuel is 80% new and fresh.
I've seen a few tanks with various dirt in them, dealing with 10 litres of dirty diesel is easier than dealing with 70 litres.
A lot to be said for emptying tank and cleaning it every few years.
Another thing is, the asphaltene process is alleged to be catalysed by brass and copper.
There is a lot wrong with a traditional yacht fuel system compared to a diesel car.
Among our local bunch of yacht owners is a bloke who runs a garage. He's cut open a few diesel filters from cars, it's common to find some water and various 'black stuff'. The car tanks are usually pretty good at getting water into the filter instead of leaving it mixing with the fuel though. A lot of older yachts can carry a lot of water in the bottom of the tank, a big interface where 'stuff grows'.
thinwater
Well-known member
This depends on the FAME source. For example, beef vs. poultry vs. rape seed give very different results. Beef-based products can gel after a single hard freeze (I was involved in a large failure with a school bus fleet--strand a bunch of kids and the complaints get LOUD!), whereas vegtable-based products can be quite stable at -15C. As a result, nearly all of the FAME in my area has migrated to rape seed oil and soy, after some dramatic failures with animal-based FAME.
But I'm no FAME expert.