Fairline - any news?

[ari]

So taking the 5 inch phone phone as Princess' 40 footer your 20 inch phone would be a 160 foot boat. In effect Princess have an incredible 13 different design phones in the 5 - 7.5 inch range, give or take.

I do not accept that a phone, an ipad, a mac, a MacBook, a watch and an iPod are all the same thing.

Henry

Fair enough but I don't accept that small mass produced consumer products and huge luxury boats are the same thing.

But my point was simply that to point at one company and say 'they only make two products - boat companies should do the same' is not really relevant, especially when the company being used as an example actually has a massive range of products at vastly different price points (their dearest product is not far off 100x their cheapest).

 

[rbcoomer]

....
If Apple owned Princess they would probably 1/4 the model range but the design would be so good that people accept it and fit in. ...

They'd also make them in Chinese sweatshops at 1/10 of the cost and then more than double the selling price! (As well as convincing half the world that they *needed* one... ) They would probably also ensure that only they made the propulsion and electronics etc and that no others would fit I guess that would certainly sort any profitability issues that might exist!

 

[Cheery]

Can't remember who, but the idea is a proper hard top that folds away into the foredeck, under a sun-pad, bit like my sons Bmw 4 series but back to front. Needs to be done properly with auto retracting side windows etc, & without loosing to much headroom in the front cabin.

Not quite what you had in mind but close.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=URsvhd6f1Ro

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XsMz2RJEX9s

 

[petem]

For us we are very happy with our boat, having got her just right, at 40 odd ft I think she has a good balance of performance, accommodation & ability to get in places that anything bigger would exclude. She is also a little different which is nice. We have looked at going bigger,but there is just nothing out there different enough, without breaking the bank. We decided for a number of reasons that a house for eldest & flat for youngest sons made more sense. There are ideas out there which IMO if grasped would sell like crazy in all sizes, but only one (none British) builder has even had a play. I think they have all lost there way, they need something "different" & they need to keep innovating. In a previous life I designed, manufactured & distributed childrenswear, every time we came up with something new, such as denim suits for 0-3 months, fluffy suits with "here comes trouble" on them etc. we sold loads, when it slowed down, we had the next new thing ready to go. Keep innovating & produce shorter runs is my prescription for survival.
For me, if we ever do buy another boat, it will likely be older & more classic rather than new shiny plastic which is the same as everyone else in the marina.

On the face of it innovation is great, but think about the consequences. All those product innovations we've seen over the past 15 years (sliding hard tops, hull windows, IPS drives, stabilizers, sports bridges, exotic hull colours, etc) have increased design and production costs and have likely impacted residual values to boot. They've perhaps driven a lot of new boat purchases over that time but perhaps we're now seeing the impact of the new ideas running dry.

 

[rubberduck]

On the face of it innovation is great, but think about the consequences. All those product innovations we've seen over the past 15 years (sliding hard tops, hull windows, IPS drives, stabilizers, sports bridges, exotic hull colours, etc) have increased design and production costs and have likely impacted residual values to boot. They've perhaps driven a lot of new boat purchases over that time but perhaps we're now seeing the impact of the new ideas running dry.

I agree ideas are running dry, just think there is no reason for it, just need some fresh blood on the design team.

 

[rubberduck]

Not quite what you had in mind but close.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=URsvhd6f1Ro

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XsMz2RJEX9s

Its a start.

 

[Hugin]

They've perhaps driven a lot of new boat purchases over that time but perhaps we're now seeing the impact of the new ideas running dry.

Innovation is a never-ending process. If the market impact of a new idea is wearing off then the explanation is simple..... the idea is not new anymore. Boat builders should introduce the next big idea even before the previous new idea is considered common.

 

[DougH]

It's been brought up many times on the forum that the problem with the UK builders is that they do not make smaller boats. i.e. below 35 feet.

If this potential market is being missed by the UK yards does it therefore prove that non UK manufacturers are filling this space.

Should this be true then the UK agents must be having a real feast and selling loads of small craft.

Trouble is I never see them so find it hard to believe that many small boats are being sold.

If you look at the modern boat history in the UK (take Princess) the original boats have grown in size every few years so that the gap between the smaller boats (say Fletcher) and that of the larger boats has remained barren due to lack of demand.

Maybe we should accept that the manufacturers do know their market ,but it is very, very hard to make a profit.

All I can see are new boats arriving in Cala d"Or and filling up the marina rapidly and are mainly 60-75 ft models.

 

[adey]

Not quite what you had in mind but close.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=URsvhd6f1Ro

All that tech and no stabiliser?...

 

[Portofino]

Can't remember who, but the idea is a proper hard top that folds away into the foredeck, under a sun-pad, bit like my sons Bmw 4 series but back to front. Needs to be done properly with auto retracting side windows etc, & without loosing to much headroom in the front cabin. Would knock all the so called hard tops with a big sunroof out of the water, so to speak. Add that to IPS etc. etc. etc. & you have the boating equivalent of my "I LOVE MUMMY" baby jog suits I used to make, sold 100s of 1000s ! (Had a "I'd love my dad if I knew who he was" version made for a joke, sold loads of them too !)

Here it is on this Riva 88 ( Ferretti group ) .Its a piece out the the Besenzoni catalogue ,like folding balconies on bigger Sunseekers and 50 ft Galeons ( made in Poland ) .
So the Inovation can be bought in ,off the self - not necessarily done in house adding £££ to over inflate the price .

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZIG7S_0NoM

I don,t buy into lack of Inovation -it's more the onwards and upwards psyche that's ran into the buffers ,the big 3 relying on whimsical purchases albeit @ 60-80 ft starter -but then -dropping out .
fl,s well speced new 52 @ £1M is too bigger gap for a "love it " average 35-40 ftr with a 10 y old boat to aspire to.

 

[MYAG]

Fairline US showing at FLIBS. 4 boat space with what looked like one new stock boat and 2-3 used brokerage. Gazebo type stand which I guess does the job of selling boats.... just. Girls looked smart though.

 

[petem]

Fairline US showing at FLIBS. 4 boat space with what looked like one new stock boat and 2-3 used brokerage. Gazebo type stand which I guess does the job of selling boats.... just. Girls looked smart though.

Thanks Mike, at least they're there. Looks like a nice day? Incidentally, aren't you expecting a new arrival?

 

[MYAG]

Thanks Mike, at least they're there. Looks like a nice day? Incidentally, aren't you expecting a new arrival?

Not for a while yet, I'm about 2/3rds through a 3yr order book! (2yrs when I ordered last year)

Out of interest, what was Fairline's longest order book at its peek, does anyone know?

Just a taste....... 4 puppies.

 

[Lloydroberts]

That'll be some tender for AG.

 

[benjenbav]

Anyone know what happened to the 100+ workers F/L laid off for 3 to 5 weeks at the start of October? I'm guessing they are back in the factory now.

 

[MapisM]

Just a taste....... 4 puppies.

An impressive sight indeed.
They seem to have managed to make them (or make them appear, at least) a bit more compact vs. the first pics I've seen of them. Or am I fooled by the graphics, maybe?
Any pics also of the lower legs?
Well worth a specific thread anyway, imho.

 

[grumpy_o_g]

So taking the 5 inch phone phone as Princess' 40 footer your 20 inch phone would be a 160 foot boat. In effect Princess have an incredible 13 different design phones in the 5 - 7.5 inch range, give or take.

I do not accept that a phone, an ipad, a mac, a MacBook, a watch and an iPod are all the same thing.

Henry

I agree but only from the marketing and end-use perspective. In terms of technology the only real difference is in packaging and scale. They are all just devices for data manipulation and communications, with CPU, memory and graphics inside, video and audio out, keyboard and touchscreen or touchpad, camera and microphone input, USB and proprietary wired comms plus bluetooth and wifi. Apple don't make big servers, mainframes or do any software other that the OS really though so they are concentrating on a core market in terms of socioeconomic and technology targets, unlike say HP. IBM hived off their x86 PC's and servers to Lenovo and now concentrate on mid/high-end enterprise stuff and services so even they have consolidated.

Apple are more like a Sunseeker or Princess in that sense - nothing smaller than 40ish or bigger than 150ish feet and only targetting luxury mobos, unlike the Beneteau group that are diversifying into all sorts, including MCY, CNB and even pre-fab housing and mobile homes. I'll be fascinated to see where Beneteau goes - they do have the advantage of being still largely family owned. That's great as long as the family knows what it's doing of course.

This is the current Porsche range - about 60 models? http://www.porsche.com/international/models/

 

[henryf]

I agree but only from the marketing and end-use perspective. In terms of technology the only real difference is in packaging and scale. They are all just devices for data manipulation and communications, with CPU, memory and graphics inside, video and audio out, keyboard and touchscreen or touchpad, camera and microphone input, USB and proprietary wired comms plus bluetooth and wifi. Apple don't make big servers, mainframes or do any software other that the OS really though so they are concentrating on a core market in terms of socioeconomic and technology targets, unlike say HP. IBM hived off their x86 PC's and servers to Lenovo and now concentrate on mid/high-end enterprise stuff and services so even they have consolidated.

Apple are more like a Sunseeker or Princess in that sense - nothing smaller than 40ish or bigger than 150ish feet and only targetting luxury mobos, unlike the Beneteau group that are diversifying into all sorts, including MCY, CNB and even pre-fab housing and mobile homes. I'll be fascinated to see where Beneteau goes - they do have the advantage of being still largely family owned. That's great as long as the family knows what it's doing of course.

This is the current Porsche range - about 60 models? http://www.porsche.com/international/models/

I don't agree with you. You are still thinking in terms of traditional, non profit making, boat builder mentality. An iPhone and a Mac do very different roles. I couldn't edit photos and run my business from an iPhone. Essentially all boats made by Princess do the same job. You just get more space inside. But essentially they all get used for weekends away, the odd longer trip each year and then many go to sleep over the winter. They all have a fuel tank which essentially allows 10 hours on the plane at either side of 30 knots.

If an iPhone is a leisure boat then a MacBook is a fishing trawler and a Mac a small car ferry. Princess don't build fishing boats, container ships, car ferries and cruise liners. They just concentrate on a very narrow window. The problem is they have too many models.

You talk about Porsche having 60 models. No they don't. You do realise that a Boster S Black edition and a Boxster S are essentially the same car don't you? They don't go out and design a new car from the ground up like Princess. The bodyshell is identical and as has already been mentioned Porsche even share some platforms with other builders.

It's like trying to argue that a boat with Volvo D11 engines is a completely different model to the same boat with CAT C12 engines. It isn't.

Put price to one side for a moment and look at the Princess range. There are so many models that essentially do the same job. One may have a galley behind the lower helm, another by the doors out to the cockpit, another below decks but that could all be achieved within the same boat as spec options. As it is they build a whole new hull and design a whole new boat. At circa 65 feet there's enough space to do what ever you want.

Princess essentially charge £100,000 per extra foot of length which by anyone's measure is quite a lot given all the basics have already been covered in the previous model lower down the line. Engine, air con, sink, beds, settees, toilets, batteries, charger, genny, etc.

So how would it be with just a 40, 50, 60 and 70 foot boat in the range which allowed a series of pre-designed layout changes inside. If you were really brave you might even develop the S class and do away with the V and flybridge concepts all together.

I might even argue 40, 55, 70 and 85 feet. As I say, forget current pricing for the moment because those prices reflect huge development costs for each 4 foot increase across 2 or 3 different platforms, (flybridge, V and S class).

All of a sudden you've slashed your development coasts, enjoy healthy scale of economy benefits and can start to build profitable boats which are great value for money. You can even start to look at manufacturing processes previously unavailable due to the 1 off nature of your models.

Henry

 

[admillington]

All I can see are new boats arriving in Cala d"Or and filling up the marina rapidly and are mainly 60-75 ft models.

This is the boats.co.uk effect - They are offering a great managed service headed up by Nick Barke.

 

[petem]

I don't agree with you. You are still thinking in terms of traditional, non profit making, boat builder mentality. An iPhone and a Mac do very different roles. I couldn't edit photos and run my business from an iPhone. Essentially all boats made by Princess do the same job. You just get more space inside. But essentially they all get used for weekends away, the odd longer trip each year and then many go to sleep over the winter. They all have a fuel tank which essentially allows 10 hours on the plane at either side of 30 knots.

If an iPhone is a leisure boat then a MacBook is a fishing trawler and a Mac a small car ferry. Princess don't build fishing boats, container ships, car ferries and cruise liners. They just concentrate on a very narrow window. The problem is they have too many models.

You talk about Porsche having 60 models. No they don't. You do realise that a Boster S Black edition and a Boxster S are essentially the same car don't you? They don't go out and design a new car from the ground up like Princess. The bodyshell is identical and as has already been mentioned Porsche even share some platforms with other builders.

It's like trying to argue that a boat with Volvo D11 engines is a completely different model to the same boat with CAT C12 engines. It isn't.

Put price to one side for a moment and look at the Princess range. There are so many models that essentially do the same job. One may have a galley behind the lower helm, another by the doors out to the cockpit, another below decks but that could all be achieved within the same boat as spec options. As it is they build a whole new hull and design a whole new boat. At circa 65 feet there's enough space to do what ever you want.

Princess essentially charge £100,000 per extra foot of length which by anyone's measure is quite a lot given all the basics have already been covered in the previous model lower down the line. Engine, air con, sink, beds, settees, toilets, batteries, charger, genny, etc.

So how would it be with just a 40, 50, 60 and 70 foot boat in the range which allowed a series of pre-designed layout changes inside. If you were really brave you might even develop the S class and do away with the V and flybridge concepts all together.

I might even argue 40, 55, 70 and 85 feet. As I say, forget current pricing for the moment because those prices reflect huge development costs for each 4 foot increase across 2 or 3 different platforms, (flybridge, V and S class).

All of a sudden you've slashed your development coasts, enjoy healthy scale of economy benefits and can start to build profitable boats which are great value for money. You can even start to look at manufacturing processes previously unavailable due to the 1 off nature of your models.

Henry

I certainly agree that model ranges need to be scaled down. But the 'S' class has always struck me as being the worst of both worlds. To me, 40, 50, 60 and 70 is just too broad and the increments are too large. I'd pick a size sector and make sure I completely own that market. So for Fairline, I'd go 38, 44, 50, and 58 with a sports cruiser (hard and soft top) and flybridge at each length. Each increment would add a significant benefit over its smaller sibling, be it an extra cabin or jump in breathing space. I certainly wouldn't be trying to 'out Sunseeker' Sunseeker.