Fairline - any news?

[sunhunter]

Very interesting reading through the thread. I wonder, do any of the brands make much money from the used market - sales, finance, warranty, maintenance, etc? Having more involvement in the used market seems important - both as a potential source of revenue and as a way to 'support' used prices and limit depreciation to aid the marketing of new boats.

 

[henryf]

iPhone 5s
iPhone 6
iPhone 6 Plus
iPhone 6S
iPhone 6S Plus
iPod Touch
iPod Nano
iPod Shuffle
iPad Pro
iPad Mini 2
iPad Mini 4
iPad Air
iPad Air 2
iMac
MacBook
MacBook Air
MacBook Pro
Mac Pro
Mac Mini
Apple Watch

I'm not convinced Apple are the greatest example of slimmed down product lines.

Even Porsche now has seven distinct models where they used to have two - and that's before you start splitting the (for example) 911 into Carrera, Carrera S, Carrera 4S, GTS, Cabriolet, Targa, GT3, GT3 RS etc etc etc.

Since when did you hold a MacBook Pro to your ear and call someone on it?

Have another look through that list. Quite distinct products and they make 2 of them.

In the case of the phone Apple are rather clever in that they sell the old models along side the current one allowing essentially pure profit to be mined from a phone who's development costs were covered long ago. It also helps support longevity and ensures the old technology product isn't worthless as soon as the new model is launched.

As for Porsche they have 7 cars against Princess' 25 boats despite selling 190,000 vehicles compared to Princess sales of maybe 200 boats ?

The various sub models are component changes and fine tuning within the framework of essentially the same car and the different models are quite distinct. Where overlap might be argued it exists purely to allow a lower financial entry point without destroying the value of the more expensive variant. The actual difference in production cost will be relatively small once development costs are removed and they are taken care of by way of volume.

If Apple owned Princess they would probably 1/4 the model range but the design would be so good that people accept it and fit in. Having 3 or 4 feet between models and sometimes 3 different boats of the same size is saying to me, "We can't agree on a design so have adopted a scatter gun approach to try and cover all our bases.

Princess, like the rest of the boat industry is still decades behind the curve despite a few technological advances here and there.

In my humble opinion of course

Henry

 

[Cheery]

The example in the supermarket world would be Aldi/Lidl versus Tesco/Morrisons. Smaller range, faster turnover of stock and fewer staff. There is obviously a price/margin difference but the big supermarkets have been bogged down by trying to be too big. Now we see them contracting, reducing product lines or areas they had branched into. The smaller supermarkets seem to be doing what is being advocated here, do less but do it bloody well.

If you try to please everyone, you'll end up pleasing no-one.

 

[Portofino]

I don't know for sure, but I'm pretty certain you could pick any year out of the last thirty and find two people who could have bought a new boat, but didn't. Not convinced that's conclusive evidence to be honest...

I think you missed the point - all three of us -exsisting boat owners did not buy a new boat last year or two .
Where as 10-20 y ago we may have -and thus contributed to upward trend .
Each at different market segments .£££ were there just not spent @ one our 3 .
SS or Priny missing out on a couple of really big boats . We all were courted at the time .
They Charter now .-having got out -
There is not a shortage of folks with £££ ,but a mental barrier on spending on for ever going upwards /onwards .Or perhaps a lower mental cieling of how many £££ folks are seen to be spending on a boat - I don't know .Its not that the products are poor .
This is why bringing cars /phones into the equation in my view confuses the issue -folks need phones if was not apple it would be X,Y,orZ
Porsche -only tens of thousands £££ -so shortage of folks crossing that mental barrier -difference is its not cash 90-% ( guess .?) bought on finance -just monthly payments to service -easy -erh and arguable a car is more use than a Pred 115 or Prinny 34 M .
As I said you have "to love boats " to takle 40- 65 ft sector
And not sure how much "love " is or involved in spending £10 M + on a boat ?-business head takes over = no sale

Ari can you put forward any explanation or part explanation as to why turnover and unit volumes have seemingly been decreasing at our big 3 established boat builders over the past few years ?

 

[rubberduck]

For us we are very happy with our boat, having got her just right, at 40 odd ft I think she has a good balance of performance, accommodation & ability to get in places that anything bigger would exclude. She is also a little different which is nice. We have looked at going bigger,but there is just nothing out there different enough, without breaking the bank. We decided for a number of reasons that a house for eldest & flat for youngest sons made more sense. There are ideas out there which IMO if grasped would sell like crazy in all sizes, but only one (none British) builder has even had a play. I think they have all lost there way, they need something "different" & they need to keep innovating. In a previous life I designed, manufactured & distributed childrenswear, every time we came up with something new, such as denim suits for 0-3 months, fluffy suits with "here comes trouble" on them etc. we sold loads, when it slowed down, we had the next new thing ready to go. Keep innovating & produce shorter runs is my prescription for survival.
For me, if we ever do buy another boat, it will likely be older & more classic rather than new shiny plastic which is the same as everyone else in the marina.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

As for Porsche they have 7 cars against Princess' 25 boats despite selling 190,000 vehicles compared to Princess sales of maybe 200 boats ?

The key to VW's strategy and indeed other manufacturers' strategy is sharing platforms. Of those 7 Porsche models, off the top of my head at least 2 are shared platforms with other VW group cars and as I understand it VW are now pushing Porsche to share the Panamera and 911 platforms. Contrast that with Princess and I'm betting at least 20 of those 25 'platforms' ie hulls are only used for one particular model. As for the expansion of Princess' range, it seems to me more like a gap filling exercise with not much thought given to who is going to buy each of their huge range of models and whether every new model is bastardising sales from other models. I'm sure the dealers love it because they get a model that suits every single potential customer but whether that is a sound industrial strategy is another matter

 

[dom]

The key to VW's strategy and indeed other manufacturers' strategy is sharing platforms....

Erm, is it?

 

[ari]

Since when did you hold a MacBook Pro to your ear and call someone on it?

Have another look through that list. Quite distinct products and they make 2 of them.

Henry

It was a rather tongue in cheek reply, apologies, but the point is, a phone is about 5 inches long. They've found a market for a 7 inch long one, but unlike boats I can't imagine there is a market for a 9 inch, 12 inch, 15 inch, 20 inch phone. But an iPhone is far more than just a phone isn't it? It's a handheld computer, the small version of which has a phone built in (there's never been an iPhone that was just a phone like a Nokia phone from 20 years ago) - the iPad isn't that much different. And as a builder of computers their range is large and varied.

 

[ari]

Ari can you put forward any explanation or part explanation as to why turnover and unit volumes have seemingly been decreasing at our big 3 established boat builders over the past few years ?

I would imagine it's because there's been a massive worldwide debt fuelled financial boom that has now imploded.

 

[henryf]

Erm, is it?

Yep.

PL71 shared by Porsche Cayenne, VW Tourag & Audi Q7 as an example.

The only winner here is Olesinski

Henry

 

[henryf]

It was a rather tongue in cheek reply, apologies, but the point is, a phone is about 5 inches long. They've found a market for a 7 inch long one, but unlike boats I can't imagine there is a market for a 9 inch, 12 inch, 15 inch, 20 inch phone. But an iPhone is far more than just a phone isn't it? It's a handheld computer, the small version of which has a phone built in (there's never been an iPhone that was just a phone like a Nokia phone from 20 years ago) - the iPad isn't that much different. And as a builder of computers their range is large and varied.

So taking the 5 inch phone phone as Princess' 40 footer your 20 inch phone would be a 160 foot boat. In effect Princess have an incredible 13 different design phones in the 5 - 7.5 inch range, give or take.

I do not accept that a phone, an ipad, a mac, a MacBook, a watch and an iPod are all the same thing.

Henry

 

[MapisM]

Ferretti Group could have been more or less in the same spot if not for the investment bankers

Bingo.

My question was in fact rhetorical, at least to some extent.
I don't want to dismiss any of your other points W, but there's nothing magic in them that Ferretti - as well as any UK builder - couldn't have done.
The most distinct difference is that when a company is leveraged to death, is akin to someone cruising in a sea full of sharks, who pretend their daily pound of flesh no matter what.
As long as the galley is well stocked, and continuously replenished, it's no big deal to throw at them what they expect.
But as soon as things get hairy, and you barely have enough food to stay alive yourself, those sharks begin biting the hand that used to feed them.
Which makes sense from their viewpoint, after all: they see plenty of boats around, so when the one they are swimming around will be wrecked, they'll just move on. :ambivalence:

 

[MJGH]

With regard to sharing platforms is that not what Fairline have been doing for the last few years with their flybridge and sports boat ranges? The coming Squadron 53 for instance is using the 53GT hull and under pinning's.
Iirc they have made much play of this method of production?

 

[henryf]

Providing your base hull is brand new, latest technology and a superb design then yes, it's a start. But any weaknesses in the foundations will be multiplied as the boats get built.

I don't know if the space problems in the 53 were as a result of the hull or poor design after the hull.

Henry

 

[petem]

Providing your base hull is brand new, latest technology and a superb design then yes, it's a start. But any weaknesses in the foundations will be multiplied as the boats get built.

I don't know if the space problems in the 53 were as a result of the hull or poor design after the hull.

Henry

Why the T53 headroom is limited requires some careful analysis and looking at pics I'm not convinced that the equivalent S/S is any better. If the Princess equivalent model is so much better as you claim then I would be very interested to know how it was achieved as you cannot create vertical space out of nowhere.

Whilst on the subject of T53's and sharing problems there is a real downside that nobody has pointed out. Whilst a limited headroom mid cabin is slightly defensible for a sports cruiser if the flybridge model is the sportscruiser with a flybridge added then you have even more of an issue.

 

[Hugin]

There are ideas out there which IMO if grasped would sell like crazy in all sizes, but only one (none British) builder has even had a play. I think they have all lost there way, they need something "different" & they need to keep innovating

I agree with that, innovation and something different can create the incentive to buy a new, expensive boat rather than a much cheaper slightly used one. I'm curious which non-British builder you think took that route?

Coincidentally I stumbled on this one yesterday http://www.bimax.it/nuova-motorizzazione-brevettata Not saying it's necessarily the best idea since sliced bread; just to illustrate there are people out there with new ideas. As far as boats go it seems many of the new ideas are out of Italy. Here's another one http://www.ethosboats.com/it/

 

[MapisM]

It's amazing how the comparison between boating and automotive industry is always such a popular topic.
I'm far from being an expert of either of those industries, but I've seen several boat yards and a couple of car manufacturing plants.
And I can't help thinking how ridiculous the parallelism is.
We might like the idea of associating boats with Porkers etc., but I'm afraid that boat building is much more akin to campers/caravan, from an industrial viewpoint!

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

It was a rather tongue in cheek reply, apologies, but the point is, a phone is about 5 inches long. They've found a market for a 7 inch long one, but unlike boats I can't imagine there is a market for a 9 inch, 12 inch, 15 inch, 20 inch phone. But an iPhone is far more than just a phone isn't it? It's a handheld computer, the small version of which has a phone built in (there's never been an iPhone that was just a phone like a Nokia phone from 20 years ago) - the iPad isn't that much different. And as a builder of computers their range is large and varied.

The really brilliant thing that Apple have done over many years is to persuade millions of people to pay what Apple want them to pay for their products. This is the absolute key to manufacturing and selling; make your products so desirable that your customers will queue around the door for them and pay whatever price is asked for them and it is to a great extent what every truly successful manufacturing company does.

In the motorboat building industry I can only think of one manufacturer that has reached this level but on a small scale and that is Fleming. Are there any others? Most large boat building manufacturers seem to be in a race to the bottom by continuing to build the kind of boats they've always done and then cutting their own throats by heavily discounting them to maintain volumes. That way inevitably leads to disaster. I guess some of them are simply hoping that they force their competitors out of business

Btw where are the French and German manufacturers in all this? Anyone know how Beneteau/Jeanneau, Hanse and Bavaria are doing?

 

[rubberduck]

I agree with that, innovation and something different can create the incentive to buy a new, expensive boat rather than a much cheaper slightly used one. I'm curious which non-British builder you think took that route?

Coincidentally I stumbled on this one yesterday http://www.bimax.it/nuova-motorizzazione-brevettata Not saying it's necessarily the best idea since sliced bread; just to illustrate there are people out there with new ideas. As far as boats go it seems many of the new ideas are out of Italy. Here's another one http://www.ethosboats.com/it/

Can't remember who, but the idea is a proper hard top that folds away into the foredeck, under a sun-pad, bit like my sons Bmw 4 series but back to front. Needs to be done properly with auto retracting side windows etc, & without loosing to much headroom in the front cabin. Would knock all the so called hard tops with a big sunroof out of the water, so to speak. Add that to IPS etc. etc. etc. & you have the boating equivalent of my "I LOVE MUMMY" baby jog suits I used to make, sold 100s of 1000s ! (Had a "I'd love my dad if I knew who he was" version made for a joke, sold loads of them too !)

 

[dom]

Yep.

PL71 shared by Porsche Cayenne, VW Tourag & Audi Q7 as an example.

It was just the opening "The key to VW's strategy..." that made me laugh!

Car platforms are interesting though; e.g. all of the major OEMs heavily restrict body derivations for each line (BMW restricts the 3-Series to 9 max inc specialty paint mods). BMW, however was shocked at the success of Lexus in the US, so in China it adopted the approach of producing a wide number of model-derivatives to capture changing consumer trends, consumer IT, fashion, etc. BMW's strategy was to surround and destroy Lexus's generally well multiple specced offerings, with a dynamic set of model-derivatives. The idea was to make Lexus and to a lesser extent Honda look stodgy and outdated. It worked! ...in 2006 BMW sold 36,000 cars in China and by 2013 it had risen to 391,000.

To keep this derivative expansion going, remain relevant to consumers' changing desires, whilst simultaneously containing costs is quite tricky. so both VW and BMW have largely moved away from the common platforms and towards common architecture (although as mike says this in practice means common platforms such as those he pointed out). The attached link: P16-22 outlines the idea.

http://www.bmwgroup.com/d/0_0_www_bmwgroup_com/investor_relations/_pdf/2015/InvestorPresent_Jan_2015_en_v02.pdf