Evidence for a 12m cost break?

[Ric]

I have read of certain yacht builders who advertise their 11.9999999m yachts as being economical as they are just below the 12m LOA where marina and tax costs increase substantially. Is there much real evidence for this?

Do various canals (Panama, Corinthian, Suez etc) have substantial rebates for under 12m yachts?

There have been various cruising taxes (e.g. Sardinia tax) which were lessened for sub-12m yachts but are these still in existence?

Generally would just like a pros and cons of sub 12m yachts from administrative costs if they are real.

 

[macd]

There's some truth in it, mainly for marina fees so far as most boat's daily routines are concerned. But in many marinas in the Med, fees are calculated on the half metre (11.5 to 12.5, for instance), so often no difference at all. Both the proposed Greek cruising taxes of 2014 and of 2016 had a huge price leap at 12m, although neither has so far been implemented.

The Corinth Canal ('Corinthian' is summat else) charges relatively modestly for increases in size on the 9 to 15m band: €80+(LOA-9)*23.00, so no great leap between 11.99 and 12m. Even if there were, I'd struggle to regard any reduction as a "rebate": by the mile it's the most expensive canal on Earth.

The Crinan Canal (in fact all Scottish canals) charge by the metre, so 11.99 to 12m is no larger a jump than 10.99 to 11m, or 12.99 to 13m.

Bear in mind that LOA as quoted by manufacturers, LOA as recorded on registration documents (if recorded accurately, which isn't always the case ), and LOA so far as marinas are concerned may well be different. Both SSR and Part 1 exclude appendages such as removable bowsprits and davits; marinas might reasonably want to charge for the space they occupy.

Any yacht manufacturer who describes any of their models as economical has never had to run one. But I suppose all such things are relative.

 

[Tranona]

Many berths in France and Spain are restricted to boats of a size, and 12m is a break point - the next size up is commonly 15m and you pay for berth size, not boat length. Berths charged by the metre often have a higher per m rate over 12m.

Suggest you get quotes for different berth sizes from various marinas to test this out.

Whether this has any significant effect on overall costs of running a boat will depend on how much berthing cost is as a proportion of overall costs. It is clearly important for some and 12m is a popular size of boat!

 

[GrahamM376]

I have read of certain yacht builders who advertise their 11.9999999m yachts as being economical as they are just below the 12m LOA where marina and tax costs increase substantially. Is there much real evidence for this?

Certainly the marinas we use have a large increase for 12m and over. Lagos for instance high season. 11.9m x 4m beam €47.11 per night
12 - 14.99m 4.3m beam €62.11, 12 - 14.99m 5.3m beam €69.74. Boat yard we use also charges lifts, wash and berthing on a metre basis.

 

[Sybarite]

Many berths in France and Spain are restricted to boats of a size, and 12m is a break point - the next size up is commonly 15m and you pay for berth size, not boat length. Berths charged by the metre often have a higher per m rate over 12m.

Suggest you get quotes for different berth sizes from various marinas to test this out.

Whether this has any significant effect on overall costs of running a boat will depend on how much berthing cost is as a proportion of overall costs. It is clearly important for some and 12m is a popular size of boat!

Most marinas in France use the actual OA length including overhangs, - eg pulpits, bowsprits and davits.

 

[RupertW]

With a 12.3m length we thought we might have the worst length but in fact the only time that there seemed to be a jump in prices for 12m in Italy, Croatia and Greece was the proposed Greek tax which never materialised.

It may be different in the West.

 

[Yngmar]

I don't think it's a hugely important consideration for choosing a boat, as much as the owners and builders of 11.99999m boats would love that. There are far more important ones. For me it was the length of the berth (the one you sleep in, not the one you moor the boat in). Couldn't find one my pillow and me could comfortably fit in below 40 ft, so I had to buy a 40 foot (12.19m) boat. I have slept in other peoples boats with "regular" length berths (do boat builders realize humans as a species are getting taller on average?), and picking your pillow up from the floor a few times per night or sleeping with your knees bent got my boat buying priorities straightened out ;-)

Also there is absolutely no guarantee that the breaking point won't be 13m or 11m in the future - the average boat length is certainly changing fast, meaning marinas must adjust accordingly (most older marinas seem to have lots of available small boat berths, and too few above 35ft - also worth a consideration btw ).

 

[chinita]

Simple answer is to have loa 11.99 on your SSR.

 

[srm]

When sailing in Denmark (2011) every guest harbour we visited had a parking ticket machine for fees where you selected the appropriate length band. We were in the 10 to 12 m band. Can not say what the price jump was though.

Likewise, here in the Azores all the marinas charge in length bands, 10<12m, 12<15m etc. Current base day visitor rate in Praia da Vitoria: 10<12m - 8.28 euro 12<15m - 9.78 euro. Length is taken from registration document. Fees are subject to additional 4% for waste disposal and 18% tax.

Regarding the earlier comment about Scottish Canals, during the last few years the Caledonian has been calculating my transit fees on registered length. This ignored the bowsprit and wind vane steering gear so saved a few pounds.

 

[Chalker]

We found in France that 12.999m was a lower band than 13.000m. Fortunately my registration shows 12.96m

 

[laika]

On the legal front 12m seems to be a breakpoint for a few things. It's significant for COLREGS purposes (notably lights and sounds, although can't say that I see compliant looking whistles on most 12m+ sailing boats). The greek tax has been mentioned. HMRC charge duty on import of vessels up to 12m which is one place where >12m can save you money:
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/notice-8-sailing-your-pleasure-craft-to-and-from-the-uk/notice-8-sailing-your-pleasure-craft-to-and-from-the-uk#arriving-in-the-united-kingdom

I had to buy a 40 foot (12.19m) boat.

10 cm shorter and you'd be into the territory of confusing Premier Marinas by saying that you didn't fall into either their 10.1-12m category or their 12.1-14m category (£18pm/a more) (although I believe the standard response is "so is it more than 12m?")

 

[Neil_Y]

Simple answer is to have loa 11.99 on your SSR.

With part 1 registry (which is what you'll have for cruising outside Europe) the tonnage length will be less, which is what was taken as our length in some countries where we couldn't communicate as well. My boat was 12.15 and yes in some cases it took us outside a price band. It was confusing as boat type was a Bav 390, registered tonnage length was 39' something but actual length was 12.15. 390 referred to the beam at 3.9m as far as I could work out.

 

[[3889]]

With part 1 registry (which is what you'll have for cruising outside Europe) ...

Why so?

 

[Neil_Y]

SSR or part 3 is only suitable if you are normally resident in the UK (185 days or more in any 12 Month period) if you are long term cruising then that might be a problem. Part 1 is also more familiar to customs in more remote parts as it has been around longer. So legally Part 3 is OK world wide but not for long term cruising. When I went cruising I was advised by some lomg term cruisers that part 1 was what I should get and it also seemd a better proof of ownership.
http://www.rya.org.uk/SiteCollectio...ion in the UK/BOAT REGISTRATION IN THE UK.pdf

 

[Tranona]

SSR or part 3 is only suitable if you are normally resident in the UK (185 days or more in any 12 Month period) if you are long term cruising then that might be a problem. Part 1 is also more familiar to customs in more remote parts as it has been around longer. So legally Part 3 is OK world wide but not for long term cruising. When I went cruising I was advised by some lomg term cruisers that part 1 was what I should get and it also seemd a better proof of ownership.
http://www.rya.org.uk/SiteCollectio...ion in the UK/BOAT REGISTRATION IN THE UK.pdf

Many people use SSR for world cruising as it has a 5 year validity (same a Part 1) and there are no checks in between on residency. The 185 day criterion is only one of several for proving residence. SSR is just as acceptable as Part 1 by port authorities or customs. There is generally no requirement to prove ownership. Registration is proof of state and that is what is required.

This does not mean Part 1 does not have advantages as it is registration of title (not quite the same as ownership), but many people are not able to get it for their boat or are not prepared to pay the significant fees to register. Not a problem if the boat is already registered but can be difficult registering an existing boat. Hence the popularity of the simple SSR.

 

[vyv_cox]

Simple answer is to have loa 11.99 on your SSR.

That is so true. Marina staff take the figures on the SSR or Part 1 as gospel. I hear stories of UK marinas taking a tape measure to boats but I have yet to see it anywhere else.

 

[laika]

http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?473471-Greek-Cruising-Tax-Latest

 

[KINGFISHER 8]

Most marinas in France use the actual OA length including overhangs, - eg pulpits, bowsprits and davits.

My marina takes waterline length for a measurement ... I bought a 12 metre berth ... I better not tell you the LOA!