Etap 21i and Trailer Sailing questions

[Jimmy20V]

Hello again gang...

Right, huge change of plan now... As the Gibsea 77 "project"i had my eye on was "nicked" from under my nose (almost literally, i could see it on the marina from my window as it was towed away to its new owner by the harbour master) my beloved and I have had a re-think.

Firstly, we want a new boat, and as finances required for anything over 23ish feet are out of my league somewhat!

Secondly, Despite living on a marina, we dont actually have a berth, and we may want to explore "cruising grounds" other than UK waters, so being able to move a boat freely on the road appeals at the mo. Also it is alot cheaper to keep the boat in a secure pound with access to a slipway.(I have a "mature" Jaguar, and I figure 3.6litres should be enough for towing safely)

Thirdly, My beloved wishes to take on allcomers in the racing scene, but only in a friendly way (so she says!!!), and I have some years dinghy racing experience along with my 20 odd years cruising on wooden boats (35-45').

Finally, I would like to be able to safely make passage in a vessel that I can rely on, feel good in, handle competently in anything resembling orrible weather.

So, we have looked about, and every manufacturer promises exactly what I have specified above along with alot more.
"The Little Etap" (21i) has appealed greatly, not only for the "unsinkable" tag, but the layout seems usable and as roomy as could be expected for a boat of its size, funky twin rudders and some racey options. Just about within budget, and a chance of saving yourself a few quid by going to get it yourself!

BUT!! the choice of keels is a troubling one. For racing we would want the full fin, where the boat draws 4'3", however, the alternative "tandem keel" with an overall draft of 2'3" give a little more lift but costs a couple of degrees upwind. 4'3" seems a bit much to easily launch and tow. Advice on this would be very much appreciated.

Etap tell me that stability and handling is comparable.

Sorry to ramble on, but your collective expertise is much appreciated.

Cheers

Jimmy

PS I have heard that these little things do something in the region of 15-16knts downwind in a 3-4.... anybody know whether this is true?

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[oldsaltoz]

G'day Jimmy20V,

Just ask anyone who has towed a fin keeler any distance and (If honest) they will tell you it's hairy to say the least, even with the widest legal trailer, the centre of gravity is very high and great care is needed when navigating a bend, but this does not take into account the odd dodge required from time to time to avoid an accident.

You may also find (To your horror) that insurance on a fin keeler being towed it quite a bit more.

I think you have to make what could be a very hard decision, speed or safety.

On the brighter side, if racing, the handicapper should look after you, line honours is not everything.

I must admit I only ever towed a 23 footer with a fixed keel, and promised myself I would never ever do it again.

Avalongthink. Old Salt Oz /forums/images/icons/cool.gif...



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[dave_gibsea]

Agree about trailing a fin keeler. What's required for trailing is a lift-keel. My dad had an Etap 20 lift-keel and he towed that with an MGB. He found the big problem was launching and recovery, usually on a deserted slipway in the rain with half a gale blowing! In the end he just used to tow the boat at the beginning and end of each season. My wife and I sailed this boat from the Solent to Falmouth, she was very fast for her size but a bit cramped below and also somewhat tender.

I would suggest that you are better off with a non-trailing boat and just pay the yard costs. Because the trailer sailer has to be kept light there is always going to be a compromise on balast, and fittings not to mention beam. All this has an effect on sea worthiness and comfort below.

Good luck!

Dave


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[Jimmy20V]

Thanks guys. You have kind of confirmed what I was thinking anyway.

Down below on The 21i is suprising to me, mainly because I'm used to old wooden boats, but at 6'2" I can quite easily see myself scuffling about down there on my knees making the odd cup of tea/bacon sarny and "sticking her on the map".

The ability to Launch and recover the boat is the most important thing to me, as the boat will (in theory) be left mast up on the adjacent yard.
Having spoken to a couple of trailer manufacturers there are plenty of gizmo's to assist on that front. However my mind is not made up on the "dry berthing" thing.

Hopefully the tandem keel will do the trick, as I don't want a Lifting keel but I would like some of the flexibility.

All I have to do now is convince my local Etap dealer to give me a test drive and pick all them extras!!

Ahhhh! just remembered a question! Asymetrical Spinny's... Etap offer a 22.5m and a 34m. Now the boat has 25m sail area overall, so to all you racey lads and lasses, should I have a No1 and a No2 spinny?? If not, which one should I have for starters?

Thanks again!

Jimmy

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[coco]

Please have a look at the First 211 if you want to go the trailer sailor way. The First is similar in length to the Etap albeit a tiny bit more roomy. The big difference is found in the lifting keel arrangement: the whole keel pivots to change the draft from 1.8m to 0.8m. She is able to dry up quite well with the keel retracted.

Other differences: the First is faster, points much higher (given a good set of sails) and is quite stiff for her size. She is classified in the CE design category B (whereas the Etap is in C). It is unsinkable, but the arrangement of the buoyancy foam is in my opinion much better in the First. It is very difficult to add any deck hardware on the Etap because of the foam between the deck and the liner, whereas the First allows any fitting to be mounted easily. I own a First 211 since 2001 and have added quite a lot of hardware myself.

I am using a Harbeck aluminum, two axle trailer and we have carried the whole thing over many hundreds of kilometers over Europe without any problem whatsoever. The center of gravity is very low due to the keel arrangement.

I have owned several smaller and bigger boats in the past, but the First 211 is really a fantastic little cruiser with a lot of capabilities. If you need any more infos, just ask.

Cheers

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[Jimmy20V]

Going to see one this weekend... I didn't get a call, I called them, and they don't seem to want my money!

Nevermind, lets see if the boat sells itself.....

Cheers for the advice

Jimmy

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[Jimmy20V]

Boat didnt sell itself i'm afraid. Back to Etap!


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[coco]

Would be interested to know why.

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[david_e]

I looked at both and chose the First 211, tremendous boat. Don't forget you will have to sell it one day and then you will see which one goes faster when it really counts)

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[Johnboy2004]

hi there i too am looking at these two boats,, the finish on the etap 21i is very good, espically on the inside compared to the 211.... but the etap the keel seems a little small...... and personally i think that the 211 has the better keel.....

so i chose the 211 over the etap 21i..............does the 211 perform as well with the sinkability tests as the etap?

have i made the right choice? can any one give me info on how they find their 211?
thanks

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[oldharry]

Re: STOP - before you are stopped!

Before you go any further, check out the towing limits for your 'mature jaguar'. Just because it has a big engine, it doesnt necessarily mean it can tow a large boat!

Towing regulations define clearly the maximum permissible weights for any vehicle, and the plod just love a bit of fund raising from wealthy yotties who have not checked it out! Nice n'easy for them!

Unless yours is a VERY mature car, there will be a plate (somewhere - sorry, never owned a Jag) which will define the various limits on your car. There will be several figures available which you need to know. One is the Gross vehicle weight: that is the all up weight of the car. Next is the maximum permissible trailer weight. This is defined by the manufacturer, and with private cars is usually in the order of 80% of the Gross Vehicle Weight. The third essential figure is the 'Maximum Train Weight'. This is a key figure because its the easiest one checked 'on the road' by the law. It is the actual weight of the entire outfit - car with fuel, luggage, driver and passengers, plus the trailer and everything that is on it. In other words the figure you get if you drive the whole thing onto a weighbridge - which is what the Law will make you do if they think your weight is over the limit.

A seriously overloaded or unsafe outfit can have a stop notice put on it there and then, and you would then have to arrange to have the boat and trailer picked up from the roadside and removed.

There is loads of info around about towing caravans - most of which applies equally to a towed boat. Considerations include stowing heavy gear like engines, fuel, dinghies etc, which make a big difference to handling on the road. If you have never towed anything large before you may well be able to find a short course which gives you a chance to learn the basics before hitting the M27. Try the various caravan Clubs, many of which organise basic training days.

Get any of it wrong, and the whole project becomes a nightmare - driving it, dealing with inquisitive Fund raisers in blue uniforms, and getting it sorted.

But get the the figures and the outfit right, and trailer sailing opens up a whole realm of new possibilities, adding a whole new dimension to our sport.

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[2383]

Dis you ever get advice re the number 1 spinny or no 2??

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