Emergency Forestay & Storm Jib

[AndrewB]

"Heavy Weather Sailing" recommendation.

By Peter Bruce, chapter 29 (4th edition) pp293-4.

"Even when in possession of a sensibly sized storm jib it should be remembered that to be effective to windward, sheet leads and the point where the sheet is attached to the foredeck will, at some stage, have needed careful thought and assessment. Ideally, the tack of the storm jib should be taken to a point somewhat aft of the stem fitting to obtain optimum balance between it and the mainsail/trisail. But to achieve this, a properly designed independent forestay, supported by running backstays, will be necessary. A tack pennant is usually advisable to give greater clearance to waves breaking over the foredeck. In addition, sheet leads will need to be positioned further outboard than for larger headsails to give an angle of 12 - 14 deg from the centreline."

In line with this advice, we switched from a close-in sheeting position with a low set sail keeping the clew close to the block, with a raised position sheeting out to the normal genoa track, which gives the required angle. And in my view, it is an improvement.

And, incidentally, I have bent a perfectly good mast by hoisting a storm jib in 45 knots of wind without setting up proper backstays to balance the babystay. This was a conventional masthead rig with straight spreaders.

I know you are an experienced sailor, and accept that what works on one boat can be different on another. But I don't think it would be appropriate to 'vehomently contradict' this advice in all circumstances.

 

[gtmoore]

I found an interesting thread from a couple of years ago that discussed this and some alternatives <A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.ybw.com/cgi-bin/forums/showthreaded.pl?Cat=&Board=ym&Number=55805&page=&view=&sb=&o=&vc=1#Post55805>here</A>


Gavin

 

[charles_reed]

Yep - useless

Mine was that sort originally, using plastic parrels.

I tried it the once in F6 and it was impossible to handle and set like a suet-pudding cloth.

That's why it was converted to the standard luff groove - it's still too large for serious heavy weather tho'.

 

[charles_reed]

Re: \"Heavy Weather Sailing\" recommendation.

Well there we are we'll have to agree to disagree.

Though I'd like to look at a drawing of his sail-plan and set up before I assume he's wrong - all I know, is that on my boat I've tried both and the farther forward and closer in the sheet-leads are the better for control and setting in high winds.

I note that Peter Bruce hasn't done a comparative test of the two positions.

 

[Chris_Robb]

Furling Headsails

I changed to a furling headsail this year, so cannot use my stormjib anymore.

The genoa is made of a heavy 10oz cross cut dacron. It rolls up well and presents a very flat sail even when very well reefed. Up to what windspeed can it be set?

Yacht is a ketch so usual heavy weather config is Jib and Mizzen.

 

[AndrewB]

As usual, then!

Did you spot the crossreference Gtmoore gives to a similar thread back in April 2001? I see we were each putting precisely the same contrary point of view back then - and agreeing about wraparound sails.

 

[charles_reed]

Re: Furling Headsails

One can reckon to effectively reef a radial-cut genoa with generous foam luff to about 60% of its full area - after that it gets so baggy and there is so much load on foot and leech that it seriously starts to be deformed and stretched.
A crosscut sail is reckoned to be rather less forgiving.
Personally I don't think the radial cut genoa is worth the extra cost or shorter life.

Rolling a sail in relatively calm conditions and in earnest when you're on your ear with water pouring up your leeward sleeve are two very different matters.

As you don't specify the LWL, weight of boat and % of the genoa it would be difficult to hazard a guess (also is the 10oz US or British weight)?

If we assume the cloth weight is British, the boat is a fractional rig, LWL 10m, displacing 12 tons, with 140% genoa, I'd reckon it's good for up to 35-38 knots.

To be fair, a furling genoa will only cover part of a boat's foresail needs.

In addition you need another windward headsail, either a 100% solent (blade jib) or (preferably both) a working yankee around 65% and a running/reacher, a GP triradial spinnaker or, if you must, a cruising chute.
In your case with a ketch, you have the lovely reaching sail in your mizzen staysail.

 

[charles_reed]

Well! at least consistent nm

nm

 

[Chris_Robb]

Re: Furling Headsails

Charles - 40ft Victory. The reason I ask is because with just a 1/4 of the sail unrolled, it was as flat as a board, I was really quite surprised - expecting a bag. - it has a foam luff

Why do you say a cross is less forgiving, I thought it was the otherway round, ie I wouldn't want the extra cost of a radial jib.

Would it be feasable to replace the hanks on my storm jib - with luggs to fit up the foil? The foredeck is one of the best I have worked on in heavy weather, hardly taking anything green, but I would have to anticipate the increasing stregnth of the wind to change headsails at F7..

 

[yoda]

This is worth a good read, http://www.coatesmarine.demon.co.uk/r18-99.htm

Yoda

 

[charles_reed]

Re: Furling Headsails

First, the hanked jib - yes no reason you shouldn't convert it to fit the luff groove - certainly cheaper than buying a new sail and easily done by any half-decent sailmaker. Why not give Jeremy Robinson or Kevin a ring at Sobstad on 023 80 456205.

With the genoa, when new you'll have high stability and when you unroll the two tapes don't tighten too much BUT when you start rolling up in gradually increasing wind speeds you'll see what I mean with the foam being squeezed to nothing and a great pudden-cloth forming in the luff. And I'm afraid the latter case is the more common real-life scenario.
Crusader put a length of plastic pipe in their luff, additional to the foam to try and counteract this tendency.

I think the point about radials being more forgiving than cross-cuts has to do with the construction using the bias in the most stable configuration. You can also flatten them a bit by increasing halyard tension. However, in my opinion, what you gain in the construction you lose in the lighter weight cloth used - I know my cross cuts last longer than the radials.

 

[Chris_Robb]

Re: Furling Headsails

Charles - thanks for that good advice. I must therefore get something sorted out. We have always tended in the past - being a powerful motor sailor - to turn the donker on with 2 reefs in the main (no third reef) and motor sail - Last time we did this with sutained 35 - 40 knots ENE apparent from Cherbourg to Chichester, we still crossed in our usual time averaging 6 knots! So I have become a bit complacent I think.

 

[charles_reed]

Snubbing winch

One of the best mods I made winter 2001 was to fit a snubbing winch to help bring in the roller reef line.

It was only a little Enkes 8, a reject from the mast-mounted reefing winch, but it really has transformed and tamed the 150% roller genoa which is about 28m2.

I'd recommend it to any short-handed sailor.

 

[Chris_Robb]

Re: Snubbing winch

I luckily have the main sheet winch just by, so can use it. I do have much more of a struggle reefing the main, as the slab lines go straight onto cleats, but provided I lift the boom high on the topping lift, its not so bad. Can normally reef single handed, but I hate the sail flogging while it happens!

 

[webcraft]

Brilliant article, Yoda - now printed and in the library. The really good thing is they'll sell you a complete kit of bits. This wil be going on our Vega when we get her.

Also worth a look is <A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.yachtvalhalla.net/articles/forestay/forestay.html>http://www.yachtvalhalla.net/articles/forestay/forestay.html</A>

Interestingly enough, they have opted for a much lower attachment point without fitting runners to compensate - but I gather Valhalla has aft-swept lower shrouds so this is probably alright.

<font color=blue>Nick</font color=blue>
<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.bluemoment.com>

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