East coast to the Solent - Summer trip

[Bru]

Thought it might be interesing to see what the Admiralry chart says ...

From Admiralty chart 1698 Dover ...
"Vessel reporting ...
The jurisdiction of Dover Harbour Board extends 1 mile seaward of the breakwaters.
All yachts should report to Dover Port Control on VHF Ch 74 when 2 miles from the port.
All vessels must report within 1 mile of the port and take traffic instructions from Dover Port Control."


I take that to mean that it is compulsory to report to Port Control if entering the jurisdiction of the harbour board whether you are entering or passing - which I would as I've already said do anyway whether it's compulsory or not 'cos to me it makes sense to do so

 

[johnalison]

I have been keen to do more night sailing, what little I have done (which is usually leaving the Crouch single handed very early on a winter morning) has been fantastic. Certainly some experience building with my crew will be needed, and how convenient that there is so much darkness on offer at this time of year. The Crouch to Brightlingsea or Harwich would be ideal. All being well, it would give the confidence to continue a passage past Dover overnight if the conditions are favourable.

Yes, a passage like that would be fine. Actually, there are two sides to night sailing; firstly, how to cope with the dark, recognising lights etc, and secondly how to cope with or prevent tiredness. Some people are much better than others at judging in the dark, even with experience, so you need to know how you stand. I assume that, like almost everyone, you are a lot younger than me and can cope with tiredness, but you still need to consider this since it can lead to errors.

You can certainly get to the Solent and back in daytime sails, but because of the tidal gates you are likely to encounter you are very likely to be either leaving or arriving after dark on occasion, so you do need to know that this is not a problem. It is to some extent a matter of confidence. My first arrival in Brighton that I mentioned was in fact the first time that I had entered a port in darkness that I hadn't already visited in the light, and I can remember my satisfaction at what seemed something of an achievement at the time. If you have the skills to make your way around the Crouch, it is unlikely that you will find anything harder when sailing along the South Coast.

 

[Bru]

If you have the skills to make your way around the Crouch, it is unlikely that you will find anything harder when sailing along the South Coast.

Hmm?? Are chalk cliffs harder than sand banks I wonder?

 

[Blue Sunray]

I take that to mean that it is compulsory to report to Port Control if entering the jurisdiction of the harbour board whether you are entering or passing - which I would as I've already said do anyway whether it's compulsory or not 'cos to me it makes sense to do so

I'd agree.

I went past a couple of time last summer and at that time at least, Dover Port Control seemed to be hailing any yachts quite some way off and asking to know their intentions, and it at least one exchange being borderline rude to one boat that said he was intending to transit outside the one mile limit. Either by name (presumably from AIS) or description. There's a fine line between being proactive and over-zealous.

So probably best to give to give them a call even if you are going to be outside the one mile limit for the sake of a quiet life.

Not sure if anyone's mentioned Lydd and Hythe ranges but would noting them to avoid as a few yachts were being to be warned off there as well.

 

[johnalison]

Hmm?? Are chalk cliffs harder than sand banks I wonder?

OP is not an idiot.

 

[Bru]

OP is not an idiot.

ah but you see I might be

 

[pvb]

Yes, you ideally need to allow more time! A sudden spell of bad weather could see you holed up somewhere for days; I've been stuck in Brighton for a week and Ramsgate for 5 days (even worse!).

Someone mentioned the pot markers around Eastbourne - there are hundreds of them, so do that bit in daylight.

I wouldn't worry too much about Dover, the Port Control guys are some of the most professional and helpful you'll find. Be sure to radio in when you're about 3 miles off and tell them where you are, the boat's size, whether you're sailing or motoring, and what your intentions are. They'll find you on radar and track you, sometimes warning ferries of your presence.

You don't need AIS or a tricolour for this trip.

 

[Iliade]

Nobody has mentioned Rye Harbour (tidal). I wouldn't choose it as a planned stopover because it is just after the Dungeness tidal gate, but it is a pleasant stopover and if you are tired, any port in a storm.

Also, in the typical SW wind, off Broomhill sands looks to me to be a good spot to sit to an anchor while resting or waiting for the Dungeness tide. Unless any locals know better?

Before they built Eastbourne Marina I used to anchor nearby. It should still be perfectly possible and maybe easier for a quick rest stop.

 

[BelleSerene]

I'm going to suggest that:

• The extension of Dover Harbour's previous jurisdiction of 400 yards to 1nm is limited to the purposes of pilotage
• It specifically excludes giving directions to ships <20m anyway
• The harbour would therefore be exceeding its authority if it tried to control your passage outside its 400m seaward limit established in the '50s.

The Dover (Pilotage) Harbour Revision Order 1988 extended the limits of the harbour's jurisdiction for the purposes of pilotage only, out to 1nm out to sea:

Extension of limits of jurisdiction for purposes of pilotage
3. The limits within which the Board shall have jurisdiction for the purposes of Pilotage under Part I of the Pilotage Act 1987 shall include (in addition to the harbour) the area coloured yellow on the signed plan, being so much of the sea as lies within one international nautical mile of the seaward limits of the harbour.
​

That Pilotage Act 1987 allowed a harbour to apply for such Revision Orders where it considered that its powers to require pilotage didn't extend sufficiently far to sea. Dover did so, resulting in that extension of the following year. But that is specifically just an extension for the purposes of pilotage (ie having the right to require compulsory pilotage, to license pilots etc) - it does not extend the harbour's other powers which include controlling your passage. And any pilotage directions cannot apply to shorties such as you and me anyway: 'pilotage directions shall not apply to ships of less than 20 metres in length'. So that extension of certain powers to 1nm does not affect your and my passage past the harbour.

To anyone who feels 'yeah but why be difficult', I would agree with you entirely. So don't. Obviously we should sail competently and responsibly, which includes avoiding big fat things manoeuvring into or out of the harbour and making it obvious that we're going to, and if in we are doubt that our intentions are clear, letting the harbour controller know them. All he wants anyway is to see we have responsible intentions and that we can be relied on to carry them out so we're not a hazard to his shipping.

But it is not right for a yacht to dodge a mile out to sea just because that's the point from which the harbour can require pilots to be put on big boats. Even if he asks, just say you're unable, state a sensible plan and carry it through responsibly.

 

[Bru]

That really smacks of "I'm going to be an arse because I can". It really doesn't matter what orders and things say, the sailing directions are clear, it isn't going to make the slightest bit of difference to your passage whether you're 100 yards or 1 mile off the breakwater, and passing close in would be well nigh suicidal if Port Control hadn't got you on their plot.

Hythe and Lydd ranges were mentioned. You can be an arse about those too because the range byelaws do not prevent navigation through the range area (they do prevent fishing and anchoring). Try telling that to the guard boat who'll chase you off if you bust the range boundary when its active!

Any road up, let's not ruin a thread of good advice. You do what you do and good luck to you, the OP would be best advised to follow the sailing directions and conventions as published regardless of whether they are enshrined in an act or order

 

[gilesfordcrush]

I'm very grateful for all the advice so far, thank you everyone. We're going to do some night sailing practice, in and out of the Crouch. An area I know well. Depending how this goes, and how confident we feel at night will have some bearing on the passage planning. Day sails are no problem. A non-stop passage to the Solent might just be something we do, if the night sailing goes well. We'll see.

The key points I'm taking from the thread are:
1. Ensure that I have the boat ready for a trip to the continent, to allow for that possibility. That'll most likely be another thread
2. Be very flexible with the plan, and take it day by day. Don't allow the desire to get somewhere lead to bad decisions.
3. If the conditions are good, and we're confident, keep going through the night.
4. Make sure I have the pilotage planned for all possible stops along the coast to avoid a scramble at the last minute and entering an unknown port underinformed.
5. Work on persuading myself that I don't need AIS.
6. Expect the weather will adversely affect the plan

 

[Bru]

Good list!

 

[BelleSerene]

That really smacks of "I'm going to be an arse because I can". It really doesn't matter what orders and things say, the sailing directions are clear, it isn't going to make the slightest bit of difference to your passage whether you're 100 yards or 1 mile off the breakwater, and passing close in would be well nigh suicidal if Port Control hadn't got you on their plot.

No it doesn't! If you read sailing directions in a pilot book, does following them over-rule sensible seamanship, which includes maintaining the shortest sensible passage and contacting the harbour radio on approach, as I proposed?! Sailing directions are guidance, not the law.

I predicted your response when I wrote:

To anyone who feels 'yeah but why be difficult', I would agree with you entirely. So don't. Obviously we should sail competently and responsibly, which includes avoiding big fat things manoeuvring into or out of the harbour and making it obvious that we're going to, and if in we are doubt that our intentions are clear, letting the harbour controller know them. All he wants anyway is to see we have responsible intentions and that we can be relied on to carry them out so we're not a hazard to his shipping.

 

[Bru]

I'm going to borrow a phrase from my daughter and say ", yeah, whatever"

I still cannot for the life of me understand why anybody would WANT to be less than a mile of when passing Dover anyway. It gives you zero time to assess the shipping movements, reduces your manoeuvring options drastically and whatever the rights and wrongs it IS going to make you very unpopular with Port Control. Oh yes, and if there's any sort of sea running, it doesn't half pile up as you get close to the breakwater and piers, much better off some distance out.

So is passing Dover close in really sensible seamanship? I think not

By the by, the direct route from South Foreland to Dungeness, which skims past the Eastern entrance very close in, is 20.6NM. A dogleg to pass Dover 1 mile off increases that to …. 20.9NM. A third of a mile. Wow, big deal

You do what you do, I'll do what I do, the OP would be best advised to follow the conventions until he gains the experience to make an informed decision himself

 

[Bru]

PS. and I'm trying very hard not to be smug ...

You missed the Dover Harbour Revision Order 2012 which extended the jurisdiction of the Harbour authority as indicated on the Admiralty chart e.g. to 1 mile off

 

[gilesfordcrush]

Ah, I missed something off the list

7. If heading for Dover as an overnight stop, call the Dover Port Control on channel 74 when 2Nm away, follow instructions, and expect to call again when 200m from the harbour entrance.
8. If not heading for Dover as an overnight stop, stay well clear and advise Dover Port Control of my intention to pass - at least 2Nm off shore.

 

[Blue Sunray]

That really smacks of "I'm going to be an arse because I can". It really doesn't matter what orders and things say, the sailing directions are clear, it isn't going to make the slightest bit of difference to your passage whether you're 100 yards or 1 mile off the breakwater, and passing close in would be well nigh suicidal if Port Control hadn't got you on their plot.

Hythe and Lydd ranges were mentioned. You can be an arse about those too because the range byelaws do not prevent navigation through the range area (they do prevent fishing and anchoring). Try telling that to the guard boat who'll chase you off if you bust the range boundary when its active!

Any road up, let's not ruin a thread of good advice. You do what you do and good luck to you, the OP would be best advised to follow the sailing directions and conventions as published regardless of whether they are enshrined in an act or order

+1

I've found the Lydd range control people much less directive and rather politer than Dover, however I was chatting with some of the the range wardens there a few years back (possibly 6 or 7) and they were saying that they had taken a fishing vessel to court and had him fined for repeatedly breaking their boundaries, I thought in transit, but I may have misunderstood that.

 

[Bru]

+1

I've found the Lydd range control people much less directive and rather politer than Dover, however I was chatting with some of the the range wardens there a few years back (possibly 6 or 7) and they were saying that they had taken a fishing vessel to court and had him fined for repeatedly breaking their boundaries, I thought in transit, but I may have misunderstood that.

It would, no must, have been for fishing as the range byelaws are clear that there is no legal restriction on the right to navigate through the range area (all UK ranges bar one, Shoebury, operate on a "clear range" system. Shoebury is unique, having its own unique byelaws which do close the range to navigation when active). Hence the range guard boats being (icily if necessesary) polite when requesting that boats avoid the range!

I personally wouldn't stand on ceremony over it with one possible exception (if heading into Rye from Dungeness and running late to make the tide into the harbour)

Rye was mentioned above now I come to think of it - lovely place, well worth a visit in a fin keeler (you dry out against the quayside at the Strand), wouldn't take a bilge keeler in there again after discovering that there's a shingle bank under the mud which means you don't dry out anywhere near upright! That was tricky to say the least. However, it's not easy to plan a passage to get into Rye as a passage port along the South Coast, it invariably means punching tide to get there within a couple of hours of HW or punching tide when you leave

 

[Bru]

Ah, I missed something off the list

7. If heading for Dover as an overnight stop, call the Dover Port Control on channel 74 when 2Nm away, follow instructions, and expect to call again when 200m from the harbour entrance.
8. If not heading for Dover as an overnight stop, stay well clear and advise Dover Port Control of my intention to pass - at least 2Nm off shore.

Whether to call Port Control if passing 2 miles off or not is a judgement call.

Last time I did it, at night, I didn't bother but it was very quiet with not a lot of ferry traffic about, I was transmitting on AIS so knew they could see me and I'd been monitoring Ch.74 for the previous hour and knew there were no ferry movements imminent other than the one that entered Dover about a mile ahead of us

If in doubt, calling them up will do no harm

 

[BelleSerene]

PS. and I'm trying very hard not to be smug ...

You missed the Dover Harbour Revision Order 2012 which extended the jurisdiction of the Harbour authority as indicated on the Admiralty chart e.g. to 1 mile off

Actually, I read it before I posted. It states:

3. The limits of the harbour shall be the area of land the limits of which are shown edged by a red line on sheet number 26 and, accordingly, there shall be substituted for the definition of “the harbour” in section 4 of the 1954 Act, the following definition—
“the harbour” means Dover Harbour the limits of which are shown edged by a red line on sheet number 26 of the deposited plans being the deposited plans defined as such by article 2 of the Dover Harbour Revision Order 2012.
​

Whilst I don't have access to the deposited plans, the Revision Order text is saying the purpose of its change is about the land area of the harbour. This makes sense, as if you read the Revision Order it's all about new powers for the harbour to do the construction works which are currently underway; it's nothing to do with its shipping powers. So it's reasonable to assume that the change it makes to the definition of the Harbour in the 1954 Act, which is what sets its jurisdiction over vessels to 400 yards out to sea, is about the land boundary.

Furthermore, the Revision Order makes no mention of 1nm. Tell me, where do you think it does 'extend the jurisdiction of the Harbour authority to 1 mile off'?

Oh yes, and if there's any sort of sea running, it doesn't half pile up as you get close to the breakwater and piers, much better off some distance out.

Yes, it does doesn't it - but as I pass those parts with the tide rather than against it, so it's much better off close in. Do you really pass through the straits against the tide?

Anyway, look, as I said, tell the harbourmaster your intentions, act predictably and and sail responsibly across the lanes.

I'm with your daughter: "yeah, whatever"