East coast to the Solent - Summer trip

[Gilesferr]

I did the trip from Fambridge down to Cowes late October last year in my Trapper 501 first night ramsgate having left at 7am arrived at 5pm but with the longer days in June I'd push on to Dover the on to Eastbourne 0700-2100 approx round to Brighton lazy day the to cowes 0700-1700 f5-6n so really good sailing on the last day.

With regards to night hrs and you feeling not up to it and your crew you could look at leaving before the sun's up (though in June that's potential 0400 ish which might be worse then the night sailing) that way you know what the harbour looks like from the day before and day light is coming which is more comforting the entering a unknown port in the dark.

Also wait for a window you don't want to bang into a westerly down channel, but that's what you want down to Ramsgate.
And if your not having enjoying yourself your doing it wrong.

 

[Bru]

Do you really pass through the straits against the tide?

Not if I can help it!

But even with a fair tide, if the wind gets up from the South-ish it can really pile up in and around the entrances. And I;m not talking gales, F5/6 will do it.

It is, in fact, one of the few things I really don't like about Dover. I don't like the Eastern entrance in an onshore wind especially as you're required and expected to be very close inshore to the North of the entrance where there's bugger all sea room

I honestly cannot see the advantage of being closer in than a mile or so in any weather when passing but each to their own

PS. Hadn't spotted the "land" bit, guessing it must have been to do with the DWDR scheme. Fair point on that one. I'll still lay odds that the 1 mile limit is set out somewhere else why would it be on the Admiralty charts as such (if it was just a pilotage requirement it would say so)

 

[BelleSerene]

Not if I can help it!

But even with a fair tide, if the wind gets up from the South-ish it can really pile up in and around the entrances. And I;m not talking gales, F5/6 will do it.

It is, in fact, one of the few things I really don't like about Dover. I don't like the Eastern entrance in an onshore wind especially as you're required and expected to be very close inshore to the North of the entrance where there's bugger all sea room

I honestly cannot see the advantage of being closer in than a mile or so in any weather when passing but each to their own

PS. Hadn't spotted the "land" bit, guessing it must have been to do with the DWDR scheme. Fair point on that one. I'll still lay odds that the 1 mile limit is set out somewhere else why would it be on the Admiralty charts as such (if it was just a pilotage requirement it would say so)

Aye, bro Bru. I'm with you. Foul seas are all the reason I'd need to keep off!

Yes, the purpose of that Dover Harbour Revision Order did seem to be to set the Harbour Board up with the powers to the docks revival project. As for why the Admiralty charts state 1nm, I wondered that myself. Me, I'll lay odds that it has no basis in fact, and that either someone 'misunderstood' how pilotage jurisdiction extends further seaward than navigational jurisdiction - it's all rather involved, innit - or someone at Admiralty Charts asked someone at the Harbour and the bloke at the harbour saw the opportunity to keep shipping at bay with impunity by answering the ambiguous question with his preferred answer. Frankly, either of these could be cock-up and either could be conspiracy! But urban (maritime) myths grow like that - after all, in this thread alone we've been told with conviction that the harbour's authority to keep you at bay extended to 1nm, 2nm and 3nm. Well they can't all be right!

 

[Blue Sunray]

It would, no must, have been for fishing as the range byelaws are clear that there is no legal restriction on the right to navigate through the range area (all UK ranges bar one, Shoebury, operate on a "clear range" system. Shoebury is unique, having its own unique byelaws which do close the range to navigation when active). Hence the range guard boats being (icily if necessesary) polite when requesting that boats avoid the range!

You got me intrigued so I checked and they beg to disagree, it is apparently an offence, at least at Lydd, for the master not to use their utmost endeavours to pass out of the area without loss of time, he repeated ignored this - hence the fine.

 

[BelleSerene]

You got me intrigued so I checked and they beg to disagree, it is apparently an offence, at least at Lydd, for the master not to use their utmost endeavours to pass out of the area without loss of time, he repeated ignored this - hence the fine.

I suppose the alternative penalty is death, so perhaps he got off lightly.

 

[Bru]

You got me intrigued so I checked and they beg to disagree, it is apparently an offence, at least at Lydd, for the master not to use their utmost endeavours to pass out of the area without loss of time, he repeated ignored this - hence the fine.

Where do they beg to disagree?

The Admiralty chart (again) is clear on this - it states "No restrictions are placed on the right to transit the firing practice area at any time. The firing practice area is operated using a clear range procedurel excercises and firing only take place when the area is considered to be clear of all shipping"

I looked into this some time ago, I think to settle an earlier discussion, and found that with the exception of Shoebury all the UK coastal ranges operate under the same standard byelaws and that the above is always the case

However, it is very clear that the range operators would prefer it if we didn't know this! They will tell you you have to keep clear and instruct you to do so but they do not in fact have the legal authority to force you nor to prosecute if you don't so there must have been more to the fishing boat fine that him simply transiting the firing area

Anyway, it's a bit of a moot point 'cos I certainly wouldn't advocate arguing the toss with the guard boat or range control over it!

 

[GregOddity]

Now here's a thread that's a pleasure to read. I wish you fair winds and following seas for your trip.

I intend of doing it the other way, form the Solent to Hull. So, reading the advice was great. I did install AIS and Tricolour for peace of mind. I seem to have a thing against very BIG fat ships heading right at me.
I would just check the Emergency White Flares and keep them handy on the cockpit when passing Dover or in the Chanel. I like them handy in busy waters. Especially without AIS and Tricolour I would want them really at hand.

 

[Bru]

Now here's a thread that's a pleasure to read. I wish you fair winds and following seas for your trip.

I intend of doing it the other way, form the Solent to Hull. So, reading the advice was great. I did install AIS and Tricolour for peace of mind. I seem to have a thing against very BIG fat ships heading right at me.
I would just check the Emergency White Flares and keep them handy on the cockpit when passing Dover or in the Chanel. I like them handy in busy waters. Especially without AIS and Tricolour I would want them really at hand.

Good point about a white "collision" flare (or several). Previous owner of Pagan had one clipped above the nav table which was an idea I hadn't considered previously. I've kept it there (granted it's not in the cockpit but it's safe and dry and readily to hand). A powerful "steamer scarer" lamp is also a good idea, shone on the sails it'll really make you stand out

 

[Joker]

"it could get a bit interesting trying to dive between the near constant stream of inbound and outbound ferries during the busy periods"
After Brexit there will be no more ferries.

It is known.

 

[Bru]

"it could get a bit interesting trying to dive between the near constant stream of inbound and outbound ferries during the busy periods"
After Brexit there will be no more ferries.

It is known.

Don't mention the 'B' word!

A point we've all overlooked, being serious, is that when the Western Docks Revival Scheme is complete it is likely to lead to a significant increase in commercial traffic aside from the ferries, many of those movements likely to be via the currently fairly quiet Western entrance. That is likely to impact on leisure vessel movements to some extent at least (probably leading to delays in using the Western entrance at times)

 

[Lucky Duck]

While the old hovercraft service was before my time, I can recall the high speed ferry going to and from Bolougne using the Western entrance

 

[GregOddity]

Good point about a white "collision" flare (or several). Previous owner of Pagan had one clipped above the nav table which was an idea I hadn't considered previously. I've kept it there (granted it's not in the cockpit but it's safe and dry and readily to hand). A powerful "steamer scarer" lamp is also a good idea, shone on the sails it'll really make you stand out

We carry 2 packs of Coastal and one pack of Ocean Emergency Flares. I got the Whites out clipped beside the Navigation table and move 2 to the cockpit and clip them close at hand. Every Sunday on the Solent during Summer you got 5 huge cruise ships, a car transport and a Fuel ship moving on HW. We got "lighted" by a French Catamaran Ferry last summer a couple of miles of Bembrige on the Isle of Wight as our stern light died, we did not even notice to be honest, just when we got lit up by a search light did we look to see why. Since then we got the whole thing changed to LED and keep the Flares handy. We also check now. Lesson learned. We also did not have AIS or Tricolour.

We do keep a big searchlight torch well charged and a high-power LED one clipped to our lifejackets. We also carry something that I bought on a whim but has proven a really good buy. I bought a small inexpensive set of LED emergency lights, silicone rubber thingies that you can easily attach to the stainless. We used the white one for the rest of the trip and kept the torches and flares at hand.

 

[Blue Sunray]

Where do they beg to disagree?

Err, because you said it must have been for fishing, and it wasn't.

 

[Bru]

Err, because you said it must have been for fishing, and it wasn't.

Purely out of interest, what actually was the fine levied for then?

It can't have been for making passage through the range area because that is not illegal according to the byelaws

I'm genuniely curious, not trying to have an argument!

 

[BelleSerene]

urban (maritime) myths grow like that - after all, in this thread alone we've been told with conviction that the harbour's authority to keep you at bay extended to 1nm, 2nm and 3nm. Well they can't all be right!

FWIW, I asked Dover Harbour and it turns out that

“the limit of harbour master’s jurisdiction of 400 yards was extended to 1 international nautical mile by s4 of the Dover Harbour Revision Order 1978 as follows:​

Limits of harbour master’s jurisdiction
4. (1) The area within which the powers of the harbour master may be exercised shall comprise the harbour and the sea within a distance of one international nautical mile from the seaward limits of the harbour.”


​

This 1978 Revision Order is not held by legislation.gov.uk [ http://www.legislation.gov.uk/all?title=Dover harbour revision order ] and is not available elsewhere online either [ http://bfy.tw/LrC0 ], but I’m having a copy sent from the hard copy held.

Anyway, so the answer to how far to stay out if you did want to ignore directions, or the distance within which directions can be given, is: 1nm!

 

[Bru]

FWIW, I asked Dover Harbour and it turns out that

“the limit of harbour master’s jurisdiction of 400 yards was extended to 1 international nautical mile by s4 of the Dover Harbour Revision Order 1978 as follows:​

Limits of harbour master’s jurisdiction
4. (1) The area within which the powers of the harbour master may be exercised shall comprise the harbour and the sea within a distance of one international nautical mile from the seaward limits of the harbour.”


​

This 1978 Revision Order is not held by legislation.gov.uk [ http://www.legislation.gov.uk/all?title=Dover harbour revision order ] and is not available elsewhere online either [ http://bfy.tw/LrC0 ], but I’m having a copy sent from the hard copy held.

Anyway, so the answer to how far to stay out if you did want to ignore directions, or the distance within which directions can be given, is: 1nm!

Which, ahem, is ferzackerly wot I said in't first place :encouragement:

And I got the same answer in my in box this morning too

 

[Bru]

OK, now I've had a chance to draw breath (and drink coffee) after a somewhat fraught morning ... the full outcome of the response from Dover Port Authority is as follows

They were pleased to learn that the matter is being discussed hereabouts whilst concerned that there is some level of misunderstanding about the rules and regulations in and around the port

As already stated by Belleserene, the legal limits of the port are 1 nautical mile from the breakwaters as indicated on the Admiralty chart

Under the 2006 Port of Dover Harbour Revision Order, the Harbour Master has the power to direct vessels within the harbour limits. This power is delegated to Dover VTS (aka Port Control)

Therefore, if you pass within 1 nautical mile of the port of Dover, you are required to contact Dover Port Control before doing so and you are legally bound to follow their directions including a direction to stand off and pass 1 mile clear (legally that's the limit of their jurisdiction so if they ask you to stand further out you could argue the toss if you felt stroppy about it!)

However, my correspondent did say that if a vessel feels it would be safer to pass closer inshore, they should contact Port Control and ask for permission to do so

Some additional interesting information of considerable relevance that Justine at Dover added ...

In choppy seas (not uncommon in the vicinity of Dover) even the shore based radars at either end of the port can have difficulty picking up small vessels and at night the general lighting around the port can again make small vessels difficult to pick up. AIS comes recommended here as it makes it easy for Port Control and other vessels to spot you and positively identify you. Because of the difficulties in picking up leisure vessels visually and at times by radar, they emphasise how important it is to contact Port Control when 2 miles off per the directions

(My ongoing extremely positive feelings about Dover are thus confirmed by the prompt, friendly, in depth and excellent response from the port authority. Dover really knows how to do customer relations!)

 

[GregOddity]

OK, now I've had a chance to draw breath (and drink coffee) after a somewhat fraught morning ... the full outcome of the response from Dover Port Authority is as follows

They were pleased to learn that the matter is being discussed hereabouts whilst concerned that there is some level of misunderstanding about the rules and regulations in and around the port

As already stated by Belleserene, the legal limits of the port are 1 nautical mile from the breakwaters as indicated on the Admiralty chart

Under the 2006 Port of Dover Harbour Revision Order, the Harbour Master has the power to direct vessels within the harbour limits. This power is delegated to Dover VTS (aka Port Control)

Therefore, if you pass within 1 nautical mile of the port of Dover, you are required to contact Dover Port Control before doing so and you are legally bound to follow their directions including a direction to stand off and pass 1 mile clear (legally that's the limit of their jurisdiction so if they ask you to stand further out you could argue the toss if you felt stroppy about it!)

However, my correspondent did say that if a vessel feels it would be safer to pass closer inshore, they should contact Port Control and ask for permission to do so

Some additional interesting information of considerable relevance that Justine at Dover added ...

In choppy seas (not uncommon in the vicinity of Dover) even the shore based radars at either end of the port can have difficulty picking up small vessels and at night the general lighting around the port can again make small vessels difficult to pick up. AIS comes recommended here as it makes it easy for Port Control and other vessels to spot you and positively identify you. Because of the difficulties in picking up leisure vessels visually and at times by radar, they emphasise how important it is to contact Port Control when 2 miles off per the directions

(My ongoing extremely positive feelings about Dover are thus confirmed by the prompt, friendly, in depth and excellent response from the port authority. Dover really knows how to do customer relations!)

THat's very useful info, thanks for the trouble. +1 :encouragement:

 

[Bru]

THat's very useful info, thanks for the trouble. +1 :encouragement:

No trouble at all, I'm a sucker for discussions like this

I'll add another observation based on personal experience that has just come to mind for the benefit of those unfamiliar with Dover …

It can be very unhelpful to call Dover Port Control too early!

One time we were the second of half a dozen yachts that had locked out of Eastbourne at the same time. Only three of the six were transmitting AIS but I knew which boat was ahead of us ('cos I was ruddy annoyed that he was ahead of us!), I knew the boat just astern of us ('cos he was on AIS and he'd busted the Lydd firing range and been told off by the guard boat!) and I had visual on the other three, only one of whom was on AIS

One of those three, all at least two miles astern of us, called Port Control when we were still three miles off. That put the vessel a good five miles out which they did not make clear to Port Control (they just called up and asked for permission to enter as if they were two miles off). This led to some confusion for Port Control trying to figure out who was who (which I did assist in clearing up when we called in at 2 miles by briefly passing on what I knew about who was where). So calling in at five miles out really wasn't at all helpful

Nor is calling up Port Control without letting them know which direction you are approaching from. My usual form is to call "Port Control, yacht Pagan over"* … then when called back to say "Port Control, Pagan, two miles off the Western / Eastern entrance heading West / East inbound for the marina over" (as appropriate). That will normally get the response "Pagan, Port Control you may use the xxx entrance, continue your approach and call again when 200 metres off".

Quite a few times I've heard people make vague calls like "Hello Dover, this is xxxx, can I come in please?" and you can damn near hear the sighs in the VTS tower from several miles away!

* Nb. I keep it brief, at least on first attempt (which I've never failed to get a response on yet) following the form set by the professionals. I see little to be gained by following the standard form of repeating the station names three times each in this instance unless there are comms difficulties

 

[mattonthesea]

I've been passed Dover twice; once bringing JEKAPA home from purchase in Medway. Dover VTS hailed us 2 miles out to ask our intention (we were monitoring their traffic) and were very nice. The first time was on a delivery trip from France. We could not start the engine when just down wind and tide from the Western entrance. We hailed them and explained that we would try to sail in but we drifted passed the Eastern entrance (interesting experience)! They offered us a tow in and no charge - very nice of them but we did enforce a tea fund donation.

WRT to the OP - three of us did Ramsgate Eastbourne Shoreham Haslar in 3 days with F6/7 up the chuff in Rival 32 goosewinged mostly. The next day 2 of us got to Weymouth. We were so tired that we took the next day off. Not a fast trip I would recommend for fun.

I have AIS now because it was easy to fit with other stuff - but lack of it would never stop me going anywhere. You just need to be that much more vigilant and follow the excellent advice on this thread. (I do think that I may have a higher than average risk appetite though )