Dry Powder extinguishers are DANGEROUS on yachts.

Ricd said:
Of course we need to remember that CO2 is heavier than air and is very toxic at high concentrations - it kills instantly. Not sure i want the down below volume full of CO2 with no easy ventilation !
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Probably less toxic than the burnt varnish, plastic etc etc. It's only going to be an issue if it catches you unawares, like perhaps if a co2 extinguisher is not really made for marine use and the valve leaks after a few years of damp salt atmosphere?
Obviously if you set one off, you need to ventillate the boat adequately.
 
I know there have been articles some time ago in PBO and other mags on how to deal with fires onboard, but in view of the apparent "best practice" changes, please could the mags consider commissioning an article ASAP on what extinguishers are 'best' for various types of fires.

I am sure that extinguisher manufacturers and insurance companies would be queuing up to help with advice in return for a bit of exposure.

I'll volunteer to be a raggie person to join in researching / writing the article :)
 
Fire Xt

Old Harry,

Do you have any info on the 'new chemical ext.' that was recommended?

Thanks

John G
 
lw395 said:
Probably less toxic than the burnt varnish, plastic etc etc. It's only going to be an issue if it catches you unawares, like perhaps if a co2 extinguisher is not really made for marine use and the valve leaks after a few years of damp salt atmosphere?
Obviously if you set one off, you need to ventillate the boat adequately.
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CO2 is actually more toxic than any of the above...and its odourless. At high concentration one breath will kill you instantly and resuscitation of a CO2 poisoned victim is extremely difficult. Ventilation would need forced as its going to accumulate at a level below the waterline - similar to that of propane gas collecting in the bilges.
 
Ricd said:
CO2 is actually more toxic than any of the above...and its odourless. At high concentration one breath will kill you instantly and resuscitation of a CO2 poisoned victim is extremely difficult. Ventilation would need forced as its going to accumulate at a level below the waterline - similar to that of propane gas collecting in the bilges.
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Suggest you look up "carbon dioxide" and "fire extinguisher" in Wikipedea. I think you may be confusing it with carbon monoxide.
 
Ricd said:
I have experience of using CO2 in confined spaces...it is extremely dangerous and in many ways more dangerous than CO. follow the link and learn -
http://safetygasdetection.co.uk/gas_information.html
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A good reference, it shows that carbon monoxide is way more dangerous that carbon dioxide. Plus carbon dioxide is slow acting with recognisable symptoms in a fire extinguisher situation. Have a look at Wikipedea too.
 
RAI said:
A good reference, it shows that carbon monoxide is way more dangerous that carbon dioxide. Plus carbon dioxide is slow acting with recognisable symptoms in a fire extinguisher situation. Have a look at Wikipedea too.
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Its not a competition...CO2 kills fast (instantly) at a concentration of 20% or more. I suggest you stick to what you know...Wikipedea is not what I or any other scientist would regard as the definitive source of all knowledge - the quote is limited.
 
Ricd said:
Its not a competition...CO2 kills fast (instantly) at a concentration of 20% or more. I suggest you stick to what you know...Wikipedea is not what I or any other scientist would regard as the definitive source of all knowledge - the quote is limited.
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Look at your own source for carbon monoxide. It needs a lot less than 20% to kill. Also your own source provides links to Wikipedea, so if you are right, maybe it isn't such a good source either.
 
RAI said:
Look at your own source for carbon monoxide. It needs a lot less than 20% to kill. Also your own source provides links to Wikipedea, so if you are right, maybe it isn't such a good source either.
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CO works over time by displacing oxygen in the haem complex in your blood..CO2 at high concentration (above 20%) will aspyixiate you instantly ...and I mean 1 breath. Suggest you also read the threads on suffocation and learn
 
Ricd said:
Its not a competition...CO2 kills fast (instantly) at a concentration of 20% or more. I suggest you stick to what you know...Wikipedea is not what I or any other scientist would regard as the definitive source of all knowledge - the quote is limited.
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you kind of made it a competition by comparing the two, and claiming CO2 was in many ways more dangerous than CO

in a confined space like a yacht, a load of CO2 from an extinguisher is far less dangerous than the CO the actual fire will produce, not to mention all the other nasties.

and that is the main point to bear in mind. however dangerous your extinguisher it's far less dangerous than the fire.
 
kesh said:
you kind of made it a competition by comparing the two, and claiming CO2 was in many ways more dangerous than CO

in a confined space like a yacht, a load of CO2 from an extinguisher is far less dangerous than the CO the actual fire will produce, not to mention all the other nasties.

and that is the main point to bear in mind. however dangerous your extinguisher it's far less dangerous than the fire.
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I admit the fire is the major hazard - the question is how best to put it our in a confined space and not create another hazard that the user of the extinguisher may not be aware of...this is why Halon use has been stopped.
 
Ricd said:
CO works over time by displacing oxygen in the haem complex in your blood..CO2 at high concentration (above 20%) will aspyixiate you instantly ...and I mean 1 breath. Suggest you also read the threads on suffocation and learn
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i'm curious to know how you can be asphyxiated "instantly", when holding one's breath does not asphyxiate you instantly.

you either mean in a minute or two, or you mean the toxic effects of C02 are playing a part as well as the asphyxiating effects.
 
oldharry said:
Just come back from the annual mandatory Fire Training lecture the government insists we do.

I was astonished to hear the instructor say that Dry Powder exinguishers should NEVER be used in enclosed spaces. I asked if that included use below decks in a yacht: Yes they are now regarded as 'extremely dangerous' and totally unsuitable for that application, without a suitable filtration mask.

I am no expert, but I pass this on for what it is worth, as I beleive most of us rely on Dry Powder extinguishers.
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Thank you for this. I on the other hand am not astonished. Anyone who has discharged a powder cannister will realise instantly they would not want to use it below decks, and its effect above decks in any kind of breeze would be useless.

I have replaced mine with CO2. I continue to strongly urge others to review their gear and not be content with powder just becasue it's been around for a long while, and "must be ok"
It isn't!

PWG
 
Ricd said:
CO works over time by displacing oxygen in the haem complex in your blood..CO2 at high concentration (above 20%) will aspyixiate you instantly ...and I mean 1 breath. Suggest you also read the threads on suffocation and learn
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What you seem to be overlooking in urging the purity of your argument iss that in any fire the rush of air will introduce breathables and diminish the concentration of CO2 around the operator to likely bearable strength.

If anyone reading your contribution is persuaded to stick with powder cylinders you will have done no one any good whatever, however satisfied you might feel about your references.

PWG
 
I had a dry powder extinguisher go off accidentally in my garage once - boy did it make some mess!!

Let's face it, CO and CO2 are both lethal if inhaled in quantity, no need to argue about it, although a person with CO2 poisoning may be easier to resusitate if caught in time.

Blast your fire quickly with what you have, and more importantly, GET OUT
You can always get another boat, if you ever want one again. :(
 
I have never heard of porridge lung. The human body has a great way of dealing with inhaled irritants and normally you will be OK if you smother the burning boat fire with a dry powder. If you are hapless such that you have a fire every week and always use a dry powder, then you may have a problem.

But! At 38 years of age I developed what was called "late onset adult asthma". The trigger is not known but apparently a lot of people that develop this, do so after skiing (late 30s), so they suspect that the cold is a trigger. The likely cause in my case is exposure to both wheat dust and various saw dusts which may have caused sensitivity to irritants.

I have looked into my condition quite a lot as I lived in denial of it for many years until I just about died. The only thing I could do was stand still and try and get some air into my lungs, which just about refused to accept air in or out.

If you get a blocked up nose drinking beer, stroking pussy or in dusty environments, have a known lung problem due to sensitivity, then maybe you should think about what to do on your boat if you have a dry powder extinguisher, so that you don't make matters worse.

Dry Powder can be considered best for diesel / fuel fires and CO2 is considered to be a poorer choice as it has no post extinguishing protection. I carry a 6 litre foam for this reason, which of course has its own slipping hazard post fire. The rest are the small powder extinguishers.

http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?t=230492 Other thread mentioned above is relevant to this posts development.
 
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Why not foam

No one has suggested foam as a replacement for powder. I replaced my 3 powder units with foam ones. Hadn't heard of the lung issue, but during one of our company fire training sessions, the company fire officer (time-served ex-fireman) said that one main problem with powder is that it creates total white-out conditions - you won't be able to see your hand in front of your face. So, you have to hit the fire first time or you won't be able to see any remaining fire to put it out and you may not be able to find your way out - perhaps easier on your well-known boat than a possibly unfamiliar building.
 
Re CO and CO2
For what it is worth

the long term and short term occupational exposure limits for carbon monoxide are 30ppm and 200ppm respectively.

The limits for carbon dioxide are 5000ppm and 15000ppm. ( 0.5 and 1.5% !)

Those figures would seem to indicate that CO is considered to be far more dangerous than CO2

The concentration of CO2 in the earth's atmosphere is greater than even the short term OEL for CO
 
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