Driving Licence for a boat - What's wrong with that ?

[Cliveshep]

Ellessar - And do you think only mobo owners do that? I was so severely bounced down at Limehouse on the Thames that wife and mother-in-law panicked so badly I had to turn back, not to mention damage to gear in the cabin. And who was responsible - the River Police, full chat in a 40-odd footer passing from astern close abeam. And they ARE trained!

How about on the Thames a few years ago at Hurley, group of RN sailers, in uniform, cap badge indicating serving afloat, not kids, in a hire boat, rammed a pile upstream of lock at full speed, crewman on foredeck was standing with one foot in a coil of rope, perfect somersault over bow c/w rope around ankle, then towed backwards feet first when skipper went hard astern - aren't the Royal Navy trained?

Ninky - pilots have licences 'cos no one wants a plane nose-diving into their kids bedroom window or down the chimney. You COULD'NT do that on ANY type of boat although possible in a car that runs off the road!

Ralleyveteran - higher rate of loss amongst older peeps going offshore simply because there are loads more of them to do so. Younger ones cannot afford boats in the main, are tied up financially with wives, kids, mortgages etc. Those with kids fled the nest and mortgages paid up have cash to spare. What boating the younger ones do is generally day-sailing/fishing in smaller boats and rushing home to jobs and discos/pubs/girlfriends etc.

Tranona has the right idea in my opinion.

 

[bryantee]

Some years ago I used to take out customers on the yachts they thought they might buy for a demonstration sail. Frequently the customer was a former powerboat owner,dinghy sailor or complete novice purchasing a yacht of between£40000 and £120000 and with no idea other than it would be nice to spend a weekend on. Anyway much of this was found out by careful questions and the answers given. I then started from basics like steering the boat under power,turning the yacht under power; reversing around a pair of buoys under power,and coming alongside a vacant pontoon under power.The initial surprise that the yacht could be handled in a straightforward manner,gave much confidenece when the sails were and raised and another 'sense' was given to the person steering the boat (kind of 'seat of the pants' sailing) as the boat accelerated,tacking and gybing,and heaving -to situations i must say that this was my way of demonstrating a yacht to sell. Quite often I was asked to spend a couple of weekends giving further informal training to the buyers , but always with the strong suggestion that they do Dayskipper course theory, and practical,and on their own boat if possible. I have made many friends of these former novices and several have gone on to full Yachtmaster qualifications. I should add here that I am not an RYA instructor and the help was requested by the customer.
The demonstration time was between 2 and 2 1/2 hrs and the first 3/4 hour was the basic handling under power. Such a basic start as this could easily be made part of the purchase and could from the vendors' point of view secure the sale.

agree entirely. used to introduce construction guys into sailing small keel boats/cruisers in seychelles,dubai,abu dhabi. uk and later Greece . the basics are shown in a few hours. the safety in many more trips out.having scared myself witless in the irish sea at times . yes experience is hard won.and invaluable. im just knocking on 70. graham who is knocking 90 is still sailing out of preveza. all power to his foresail.

 

[Duffer]

CBC

I believe the most important items you need to know about boating before starting can be written on one side of A4. The rest can come later. For example on colregs-

1. Drive on the right.
2. Give way to a boat coming from your right
3. Keep clear when overtaking.

Would be enough to prevent the daily occurrences of small (and sometimes not so small) mobos who drive as if they're in a car and scream abuse when you try to pass port to port.

The question is - how to (a) get beginners to read it and (b) make them realise they need more knowledge for more challenging circumstances?

I do think there should be a minimum certificate e.g. 1 hour for a dinghy with an outboard perhaps a day for something larger/faster that could kill someone else. It should be compulsory for anyone buying or renting, recommended for others.

The purpose would be to cover basic operation, basic coll regs, basic safety equipment, forecasts, tide tables, basic GPS nav. There should be decent handouts giving further information and stressing the need for further training and giving details of local providers.

Every year I have a near miss with someone who has no idea about port to port etc. Perhaps the mags could help by printing A4 posters on basic coll regs etc to be put up in every pub and club...

 

[Scotty_Tradewind]

I'm sure we all would dislike our sport/hobby to come under more legislation than is absolutely the minimum required.
A licence that you could lose because of misbehaviour would help answer one of the main points of this discussion but how would any of that be policed?....with great difficulty and would surely remove one of the great freedoms that we enjoy from boating.
Well, perhaps we then have to make more noise to impress our own sort.
In our inland/offshore clubs we have talks in the winter each month near Henley on Thames and near Reading... perhaps a mention each time to our members and guests when we meet to try and encourage our members to not wash down the mobos or power by them to get to the front of the small boat channel when going into Portsmouth on the fast spring ebb etc may help, or perhaps mobos could advise us directly where we are getting it wrong? If so please contact me via this blog and I will make a spot available to you at one of our talks.

 

[Elessar]

If so please contact me via this blog and I will make a spot available to you at one of our talks.

pm sent

 

[Tranona]

No, my contact knows the age of people paying premiums and the cruising areas they had cover in, so he knows how many are going offshore. He was shocked at the higher rate of loss among those over 65.

I think we are agreeing. Going offshore is done by a disproportionate number of older people than either the population as a whole or even the boating population. It would not be surprising that claims came from such people. Unless you have very detailed evidence that lower competence due to age was the direct cause of the claim, all you have is a high risk category - going offshore.

On the other hand if you had statistics that showed out of all the offshore sailors the insurer covered, 50% were over 65 but made 90% of the claims you would have an association between age and claims, but still not a causal relaionship. The association would be enough for me to look at increasing premiums to older sailors, but would still not explain why they are a higher risk.

 

[rallyveteran]

On the other hand if you had statistics that showed out of all the offshore sailors the insurer covered, 50% were over 65 but made 90% of the claims you would have an association between age and claims, but still not a causal relaionship. The association would be enough for me to look at increasing premiums to older sailors, but would still not explain why they are a higher risk.

I don't know about the precise figures, but this was the sort of pattern my contact described (i.e. the increase in claims wasn't merely due to increase in offshore miles covered by older skippers but was actually the result of an increased risk per offshore mile).

My contact is himself over 65 and an experienced offshore sailor. When he told me about this data analysis he said knew that he personally was more of a risk in advancing years because of declining physical ability, less able to keep awake etc. As I say further up the thread they had chosen not to respond by increasing the premium for older skippers, but by putting in more restrictions of crew/cruising area/seasons etc.

 

[Seven Spades]

I remember reading an article written by Jeremy Clarkson in which he said if you want to improve driving standards fist ban seat belts and secondly affix a large spike to the middle of the steering wheel.

 

[sailorman]

Would those be the same RNLI statistics (not sure why you put the word in quotes ... are you implying that there is something dodgy about RNLI stats?) that show causes of lifeboat services last year included;

678 services to vessels stranded or grounded
469 services to vessels thought to be in trouble
456 services to vessels meeting adverse conditions
134 services to vessels out of fuel

... and, of course, 1501 services to vessels with engine failure

The RNLI (bless them) don't attribute blame - but we must surely accept that of these 3238 lifeboat launches, which account for more than a third of their services last year (and a very considerable expense), quite a significant number could have been avoided with better knowledge or training.

The RNLI are major supporters of training provision, of course. Their statistics show that they spoke directly to over fifty thousand people about safety issues last year, and one of their key messages is the importance of training.

I don't suppose any of us believes that people are less competent as a result of training, and we'd all like to see more competence and less avoidable accidents on the water. There also still seems to be a majority who oppose legislation. So what is the answer? How do we get the message across to those who need it?

quite a significant number could have been avoided with better knowledge or training.


Or did you mean

If the HMCG hadn't instigated the "Call-Out" in the first place where not required

 

[Doghousekeeper]

quite a significant number could have been avoided with better knowledge or training.


Or did you mean

If the HMCG hadn't instigated the "Call-Out" in the first place where not required

No of course not. Don't be foolish.

I've worked with Mountain Rescue, Cave Rescue, Lifeboat crews, and other rescue services for more than 30 years and I've never once heard anyone in any of those teams say that they would rather not be called out unless it was certain they were needed. Without exception they have always said that they would far rather be stood down if it was found they weren't needed than arrive too late.

If I've misunderstood your comments I apologize, but my reading leaves me feeling that many of my colleagues and ex-colleagues would be hugely offended

 

[Boathook]

Do we have more accidents or incidents than any other country that has some form of licence. As others have said what type of boat do you train on and for how long. If it was a serious problem wouldn't the insurance companies be asking to see qualifications before 'giving' insurance?

 

[BurnitBlue]

How about on the Thames a few years ago at Hurley, group of RN sailers, in uniform, cap badge indicating serving afloat, not kids, in a hire boat, rammed a pile upstream of lock at full speed, crewman on foredeck was standing with one foot in a coil of rope, perfect somersault over bow c/w rope around ankle, then towed backwards feet first when skipper went hard astern - aren't the Royal Navy trained?

Thank goodness we have an Air Force.

 

[bobgoode]

Correct me if I'm wrong but don't we have driving licences for cars and look at the standard of driving on the roads.

 

[Doghousekeeper]

Correct me if I'm wrong but don't we have driving licences for cars and look at the standard of driving on the roads.

Absolutely. It would be so much better without tests and licencing

 

[ninky]

Correct me if I'm wrong but don't we have driving licences for cars and look at the standard of driving on the roads.

and you think it would be safer if anyone could just buy a car and drive off in them do you? regardless of age or anything? madness!

 

[ninky]

Ninky - pilots have licences 'cos no one wants a plane nose-diving into their kids bedroom window or down the chimney. You COULD'NT do that on ANY type of boat although possible in a car that runs off the road!

but they don't mind having a boat plowing into them and killing them whilst they are having an innocent swim (remember kirsty mccoll anyone?), or taking them out for a trip in a boat and drowning them because they have no experience (remember a story last year about some new owners who took three girls out in terrible weather and they all drowned just outside the harbour).

 

[Tranona]

Bad legislation always comes out of kneejerk reaction.

The example I often use is the introduction of as 50 limit on a road near me that was designed for 70. Accidents occurred because of one badly designed junction. Was it re-designed? Of course not! A 50 limit imposed, mobile camera there nearly every Sunday morning filling the coffers.

Sad thing is that first accident after the 50 limit was a Subaru leaving the road at an estimated 110 mph and killing two of the driver's mates. He had a licence, passed a test, and no formal speed limit was going to deter him.

You can't legislate for stupidity (analagous to the incident quoted)

 

[Refueler]

and you think it would be safer if anyone could just buy a car and drive off in them do you? regardless of age or anything? madness!

It wasnt THAT long ago that was exactly what was the case ... My father didn't have to take a test to drive, but chose to have Hendon Police College teach him voluntarily ... little while later Govt brought in compulsory testing.

 

[Lakesailor]

No. I am talking about the basics. Colregs, buoyage, chart reading tides etc.

How will this help me on Windermere?

Excellent Troll

 

[Bajansailor]

We have a rather haphazard (to put it politely) set of rules and regulations here in Barbados.

Anybody who drives a speedboat that is capable of doing more than 15 knots has to have a speedboat drivers license.
This involves sitting a theory test, followed some time later by a practical test.
But you first have to submit an application for these - this application must include a Certificate of Character to confirm that you are not a criminal.
To get this CoC you have to go along to the police station, queue up, get called a couple of hours later to have your finger prints scanned and then hand over the fee.
They then tell you to come back in a week for your CoC.

The operators of the PWC / jetskis here all have to possess valid speedboat drivers licenses, and go through the above mentioned procedure to get their licenses.
The tourists who they rent these beasts out to do not.
These are usually 1100 cc monsters now, capable of serious speed.
Rented by a tourist who has never been on one before, and after chugging a few swift pummy runches at noon thinks it would be a good idea to go for a blast on one......
Thankfully major accidents don't happen tooo often.....

There are many much larger, much more powerful boats here that are also capable of doing more than 15 knots - but their owners / operators are not required to have speedboat drivers licenses, I think because these boats do not 'look' like speedboats (which are usually Boston Whaler / Fletcher / Mastercraft / Sea Ray types under about 23' aren't they?).

Yes, the system needs an overhaul.....