Driving Licence for a boat - What's wrong with that ?

[jonjo]

Based on observation I do not see any clear link between MoBo or new boat ownership and handling incompetence.

However financially painful personal experience and general observation leads me to believe we need mandatory periodic boat handling assessment tests for the over 60's in charge of leisure craft.

 

[Searush]

You have made the all too common mistake of confusing Education with Licensing.
perhaps you are part of the problem? why not offer a familiarisation/handover session with the new boat when you sell it OR provide RYA PB Level 2 training with all purchases - some other people do this and have negotiated good rates with local schools.

At the very least chuck in a "beginners guide to powerboating" book, and the chart for the area the buyer intends to sail.

Yes, bearing in mind that frightened customers will not buy another boat, but customers impressed by your support & encouragement will return time & again & tell all their mates. Doesn't it make sense? I sell used bikes, for a few tens of quid, often to people who haven't ridden for years. I spend as much time as they need chatting, encourageing & letting them try different bikes & settingg them up correctly. In many cases the cost of teh bike wouldn't cover the cost of my time. but the number of repeat sales I get is high.

You know it makes sense, the answer is in your own hands.

 

[Tranona]

Reading MAIB reports would suggest that this is not the case at all - a very significant number of accidents are indeed caused by incompetence, and the consequences can be tragic. Try reading the report for "Last Call" at Whitby, for example.

I have - all of them for the last 15 years or so, which is why I can make the statement with confidence. You have, of course picked one extreme example and there are others, mainly small power/fishing boats where incompetence is a factor, but if you put it into context and together with the RNLI "statistics" which capture some of the background of those incidents that don't end up as disasters you still end up with no real evidence that lack of competence is either endemic nor a major cause of incidents/accidents. Even that much derided sub group of PWCs which frighten the life out of me sometimes are statistically very safe!

 

[DaiB]

Wind up surely

Based on observation I do not see any clear link between MoBo or new boat ownership and handling incompetence.

However financially painful personal experience and general observation leads me to believe we need mandatory periodic boat handling assessment tests for the over 60's in charge of leisure craft.

So when you are aged 59 and 364 days your ok and two days later you need a test!!!

 

[fireball]

that sounds absolutely fine - for the next few decades at least!

 

[jac]

As has been said previously even a CBT type test would dumb things down too much that the numpties would still think "I have the paper = I'm safe"

I think a better way might be for better insurance etc discounts for those with training - maybe some restrictions on small high powered craft in busy locations - e.g. no launching speedboats unless you have the right certificate etc.

The problem though is policing it - who's going to check everyone - Marinas? Yacht Clubs when someone takes a berth - harbour masters when someone launches? It will all add costs and no solution gets away from the point that in general it's a safe sport and that if someone wants to buy a cheap motor boat from a river and trail it to the sea with just an AA road map and a GPS on their phone then how are you going to stop them?

 

[jonjo]

So when you are aged 59 and 364 days your ok and two days later you need a test!!!

Well that silly logic brings into question the notion of a minimum age for driving a car or age of consent.

In 5 years I have suffered two in-harbour thumps both from other craft driven by retirement aged crew. This year I have witnessed two unnecessary heavy marina collisions both involving old helmsmen.

It seems as people age their internal gyros become less sensitive and spacial awareness decreases. Despite the personal boat repair cost and a growing personal conviction on this subject I have not felt compelled to rush onto the forum before and suggest mandatory OAP boat driving tests, however since the subject has been raised I had an peculiar urge to defend MoBo drivers and point the finger where it needs to be pointed.

 

[sailorman]

I should mention that I work in the industry and see many newcomers to the sport.

With regard to new powerboaters particularly ( no offense ) I would estimate that as many as 50% have now idea of col regs, ability to read a chart , understand tides or how to moor a boat. To be fair, most are more interested in fishing than boating . As a result, many frighten friends and families, not to mention other boaters and very often pack up after a short time.

All because, they are led to believe that it is not important enough to have some form of education.

I do not consider It to be a Sport.
with me its an Obsession & has been for 40 yrs.
we all learned form our friends, sailing with them. not some money making outfit on a quasi charter

 

[Poignard]

Reply to Jonjo's post

'In 5 years I have suffered two in-harbour thumps both from other craft driven by retirement aged crew. This year I have witnessed two unnecessary heavy marina collisions both involving old helmsmen.'
_______________________________________________________

To reach the conclusion you have after only 4 incidents in 5 years suggests that you base it on prejudice rather than evidence.

 

[Elessar]

As has been said previously even a CBT type test would dumb things down too much that the numpties would still think "I have the paper = I'm safe"

yup

I think a better way might be for better insurance etc discounts for those with training

If training manifests itself as fewer claims, you can rest assured the market will provide this. How much discount is given now for RYA certificate holders, anyone know?

 

[Tranona]

Well that silly logic brings into question the notion of a minimum age for driving a car or age of consent.

In 5 years I have suffered two in-harbour thumps both from other craft driven by retirement aged crew. This year I have witnessed two unnecessary heavy marina collisions both involving old helmsmen.

It seems as people age their internal gyros become less sensitive and spacial awareness decreases. Despite the personal boat repair cost and a growing personal conviction on this subject I have not felt compelled to rush onto the forum before and suggest mandatory OAP boat driving tests, however since the subject has been raised I had an peculiar urge to defend MoBo drivers and point the finger where it needs to be pointed.

This is prercisely what insurance is there to deal with. If there is evidence that any particular category of user (by age, gender, sexual orientation, amount of hair on head and chin or whatever) premiums for people in that category would rise.I have never seen any raised premiums for the over 60's. However, being in that category myself, I "enjoy" insurance premiums on my cars that are not too different from the annual road fund. I guess two minor claims in 45 years (both long ago) has something to do with it. Ditto for boats. Two claims in 33 years one for a stolen Avon and the other for the 1987 storm damage.

 

[cliffordpope]

The analogy with driving is a false one.
Cars are potentially dangerous weapons if they get out of control and can easily kill dozens of innocent people. So it is reasonable to demand a certain level of competence before letting anyone drive one.
Small boats are pretty safe in comparison, and certainly safer than say doing DIY at home.

The less serious problem of the cost of minor and major bumps is what insurance is for. Premium levels are presumably already set to reflect the risk factors. There might perhaps be a case for compulsory third party insurance, and a requirement to stop, exchange details, etc, but that is a different question.

 

[fireball]

The analogy with boating is a false one.
Boats are potentially dangerous weapons if they get out of control and can easily kill dozens of innocent swimmers. So it is reasonable to demand a certain level of competence before letting anyone drive one.

....

Idiots in boats can be just as life threatening. I see potential accidents pretty much every time we're out on the water - many don't turn into tragedy because the participants are not idiots.

Do we want/need a boating licence? No, because it will be done down to the lowest possible level and as has already been said - those that pass will assume they know everything they need to know - and boating is far more complex than driving.

 

[ninky]

personally yes, i think it's a good idea. after i did my dayskipper last year i remember thinking, flippin 'eck, i could be in charge of a boat now! i still felt nervous about the whole thing (mind you, i'm one who had to take my driving test 4 times.....)

and then i realised that actually i could have been in charge of a boat even before that.

yes some basic boat handling skills along with the basic rules / colregs etc should be tested before people can take charge.

after all, it's not just their lives they are risking it is others. none of the visitors to my boat this year realised you could just buy a boat and set off in it - and were completely shocked when i told them this was the case.

i also think muppets shouldn't be allowed on jetskis...grrrrrr

 

[fisherman]

I think a better way might be for better insurance etc discounts for those with training -
QUOTE]

Dream on. What will happen is as soon as there is any certificate to be had the insurance will insist you have it, and withdraw cover if you don't, as they have with the MCA cert for fishing vessels, and as they will when the skipper's cert of competence (which I think is necessary) comes in soon.

Already all crewmen have to hold certs in survival, first aid, firefighting and 'safety awareness' (got to keep the training people in work) and a boat may be prevented from going to sea otherwise.

Your problem is to see when the inevitable regulation is coming, and get your act together before it is imposed on you.

 

[Doghousekeeper]

if you put it into context and together with the RNLI "statistics" which capture some of the background of those incidents that don't end up as disasters you still end up with no real evidence that lack of competence is either endemic nor a major cause of incidents/accidents.

Would those be the same RNLI statistics (not sure why you put the word in quotes ... are you implying that there is something dodgy about RNLI stats?) that show causes of lifeboat services last year included;

678 services to vessels stranded or grounded
469 services to vessels thought to be in trouble
456 services to vessels meeting adverse conditions
134 services to vessels out of fuel

... and, of course, 1501 services to vessels with engine failure

The RNLI (bless them) don't attribute blame - but we must surely accept that of these 3238 lifeboat launches, which account for more than a third of their services last year (and a very considerable expense), quite a significant number could have been avoided with better knowledge or training.

The RNLI are major supporters of training provision, of course. Their statistics show that they spoke directly to over fifty thousand people about safety issues last year, and one of their key messages is the importance of training.

I don't suppose any of us believes that people are less competent as a result of training, and we'd all like to see more competence and less avoidable accidents on the water. There also still seems to be a majority who oppose legislation. So what is the answer? How do we get the message across to those who need it?

 

[DavenHelen]

...we all learned form our friends, sailing with them. not some money making outfit on a quasi charter

Not necessarily, I saw training as a way to get back to sailing after a brief period on my younger days when I had a friend with a yacht.

 

[oldharry]

OP and others in favour of licensing are clearly Tax collectors. They are the only people who could conceivably benefit from introducing any sort of licensing scheme for boaters.

Education is a totally different matter - but how can there be incentives to undertake training for something that is free anyway?

But the other danger is: 'I've got the license/ done the training, therefore I am OK' Clearly doesnt work with the car driving test, with the carnage on our roads. Just imagine if we had the same fatality figures in boating.....

 

[Cliveshep]

The analogy with boating is a false one.
Boats are potentially dangerous weapons if they get out of control and can easily kill dozens of innocent swimmers. So it is reasonable to demand a certain level of competence before letting anyone drive one.

....

Idiots in boats can be just as life threatening. I see potential accidents pretty much every time we're out on the water - many don't turn into tragedy because the participants are not idiots.

Do we want/need a boating licence? No, because it will be done down to the lowest possible level and as has already been said - those that pass will assume they know everything they need to know - and boating is far more complex than driving.

Well said! And to the poster who suggests that over 60's are senile or similar I'll spit in your eye when me arthritis allows!

The whole idea of boat driving licences makes me really, really, angry

So, allow an over 60 old fart to pose a question or two about a proposed boat driving licence.

How do you think any sane person could arrange the details of the test when:

Person A drives a NB on the Shroppie (he really needs to know MOB and Colregs and how to read a chart doesn't he!)
Person B drives a 40ft mobo on the Upper Thames
Person C has a 12ft sailing dinghy on Windemere (I hope he's completed a CG66)
Person D has a cuddy dory he trails to both the Broads and the local Harbours for a bit of fishing.
Person E has a speed boat he uses at Clacton on fine days
Person F has an inflatable he takes wherever on holiday with a caravan.

Get the picture?

We are all different in age, ability, type of craft, waters "sailed" (I use that term loosely). The comparison witrh cars is total bollox, cars ARE basically similar, 4 wheels, seat belts, instruments, steering and controls although performance varies and insurance companies control by price the use of fast cars for young drivers.

Only a complete fool could possibly want a universal driving licence for boat skippers, or this government I suppose (which amounts to the same thing). Not only would you have as many categories as types of boat, types of water and type/age of skipper but you're advocating the legislation of control of the last great freedom apart from thought and breathing. The idea is insane and unworkable so for God's sake don't suggest it or this Government might even try it.

What would be needed is basic (and relevant to craft sold and water used) boat handling skills taught at point of sale (not "sail", note) and in the case of private sales you couldn't even legislate for THAT! Having said that, who will be qualified to instruct on 250 different boats on 20 different water situations to 20,000 different people?

The only solution is to scrap and burn every private boat, ban the whole thing about private boat ownership so no-one sails at all and leave it to the professionals like Stena, Sealink, P & O etc - is THAT what you want? Make it illegal to skipper anything apart from a pedelo on the local boating lake? Hang on a mo, you can drown in a few inches of water, better ban those as well.

NO and again NO! Things are not perfect, peeps still set off in unsuitable craft in unsuitable weather on unsuitable waters, still drive like they are on the M25, have little or no personal safety gear, and hazard their own lives and those of others. So What? If you feel that the waters are full of dangerous boaters don't set off yourself!

What we SHOULD all do (and I hope we all do), is kindly and patiently offer advice and assistance from our own experience to help educate those heading into danger through ignorance, keep a weather eye out for them until they too become experienced and can assist others just starting. In other words, insteads of just whinging about their lack of skills on the water make some positive moves to share knowledge and experience.

And if they don't want it - at least you have offered!

Rant over and I'll sit back and let temper cool now!

 

[DavenHelen]

I agree it should be education not licensing. Have we considered that one of the reasons that sailing and boating have so few casualties and driving so many is that generally people consider the Sea as dangerous and Roads as safe? The majority of people going to sea take much more care and prepare better than drivers.