Drink boating laws one step closer ..

[Tranona]

'twas only slightly tongue in cheek. You are right that MOBOs don't go out in the sort of extreme conditions where sailboats founder. However they do play with the big boys in the shipping lanes - without being hit - but all those incidents where there is enough information have been in circumstances when any sensible MOBO is tucked up in a marina. Only two of the foundering incidents took place out of the sight of land - both in the Bay of Biscay. The rest in coastal waters, although in only two cases was proximity to land relevant. I one case (a charter yacht foundering in the Needles Channel) the extreme conditions were accentuated by the topography of the area.

With regard to the other factors, there is very little pattern - and of course there is no meaningful data about the circumstances in which incidents have NOT happened to set into a context. Just try working out an "incident per mile" or "incident per boating episode". Totally meaningless, because all you have is the numerator, which in itself in any time period is extremely small and an incalculable denominator.

One can understand why regulators and particularly politicians have so much difficulty. Most of the problems they have to deal with are "big enough" for conventional statistical analysis to provide a reasonable representation of what is going on.

If it is any consolation, commercial shipping has the same problem and their regulators have been using the same basic analytical approach I have - which is where I got it from.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Accident staitics are generally presented per passenger mile so it should be possible to calculate a comparison between sailboats and mobos. For mobos, the average annual usage is about 100hours which probably equates to around 1500nm. I don't know what the average annual mileage for a sail boat is but I suspect it's less than that, the majority of sailors being weekenders and therefore achieve limited distance
As for mobos not going out in adverse conditions, that of course is generally true but it is because mobos are usually able to outrun adverse weather or wait for a weather window due to their speed so IMHO a comparison is valid

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

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For instance how many of those sailing boats were actually motoring when the accident happened or was sailing as opposed to just being on a boat a contributary factory?


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Now you're floundering a bit lescargot. A sailing boat is a sailing boat whether it's motoring or sailing. You're not seriously trying to argue that any accident involving a sail boat under motor should be classified as a motor boat accident? The figures show that in 2006 deaths involving sail boats exceeded deaths involving mobos. Period

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I think what is indisputable is that any vehicle is harder to control at higher speeds when under the influence of alcohol - certainly the consequences are likely to be more significant.

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What? A yottie arguing that driving a motor boat is more difficult than a sailboat. Thats a first.

 

[Tranona]

Your guesstimate of time/miles may well be right, but there are no realistic statistics because you don't have to check in and out. However it is not time at sea that raises the risk. As I have tried to show the incidents are random and you have to look at the circumstances surrounding the incidents to make any sense.

One of the things that struck me (related to usage) is how few charter boats are ever involved in incidents that result in a full investigation. I can only recall 5. One was an electrical fire caused, if I recall by poor wiring for the windlass. One was the Irish Hanse that lost its rudder. One was a charter boat with a delivery crew that foundered in the Bay of Biscay. One was a Maxi yacht fully crewed that got into difficulties in the Bay of Biscay but did not founder. In both those cases lives were saved by rafts, but not without difficulty. The last was a bareboat charter that was capsized in adverse conditions in the Needles Channel. If time at sea was a factor you would expect more incidents in charter boats than private boats.

With regard to the relative safety of MOBOs. The ability to get out of the way of bad weather and avoid shipping is clearly a major factor. Also mechanical failures are not usually catastrophic (although maybe have more potential to be). But I think the biggest factor is that off shore power boats are usually owned by sensible people (difficult to amass the capital to buy and run one if you are stupid, although not impossible!) who use them well within the limits of their capability - both skipper and boat. And are highly unlikely to use their boats while unfit. They are also likely to be people who have high powered cars, but are not the kind of people who would wrap them round a tree showing off to their mates.

Regulators have difficulty in seeing past their idea that boats are big dangerous devices that could cause mayhem and don't like evidence that says that is not the case!

 

[l'escargot]

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...You're not seriously trying to argue that any accident involving a sail boat under motor should be classified as a motor boat accident? The figures show that in 2006 deaths involving sail boats exceeded deaths involving mobos. Period

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Not at all. What I was trying to do was break down the causes of all accidents further than just mobo/yachtie - you seem to think that all accidents involving sailing boats are drunken yachties being knocked overboard by the boom, which is not the case - no more than all motorboat accidents are drunken rib drivers hitting the Cowes breakwater at speed. Some accidents are just down to being on the water and the type of boat is of no relevance - you can fall off any type of boat equally when it is tied to the pontoon and it doesn't matter whether it has got sails or an engine.

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I think what is indisputable is that any vehicle is harder to control at higher speeds when under the influence of alcohol - certainly the consequences are likely to be more significant.

[/ QUOTE ]

What? A yottie arguing that driving a motor boat is more difficult than a sailboat...

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Again not at all. I have done both and as a generalisation motorboating is easier in that for a lot of the time it can just be "point and shoot". Taking it down to the very basic level anyone who can drive a car can drive a motor boat to a lesser or greater degree. It is a lot harder knowing which bits of string you need to pull to get a sail boat going and they don't drive themselves.

I deliberately used the word "vehicle" to avoid any inference that you wish to take - next time you are pissed, get on your push bike and ride it slowly, then try riding it fast and you will see what I mean.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

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you seem to think that all accidents involving sailing boats are drunken yachties being knocked overboard by the boom

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You're misrepresenting me. What I said was that yottie deaths from falling overboard or being struck by a boom (didn't mention drink) exceeded deaths caused by drunken moboers. I did then go on to say that a drunken sailor is just as capable of causing an accident or killing himself as a drunken moboer so the slow speed exemption is a nonsense

As for moboing being point and shoot, try berthing a 50ft flybridge mobo in a cross tide or cross wind situation. Agree that it takes time to learn which strings to pull on a sail boat but since most sail boats go everywhere under power and few seem to ever raise their sails, most sailboaters don't seem to have learnt either

 

[l'escargot]

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...You're misrepresenting me...

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No more than you are me - I was trying to move things on from just a mobo/yachtie dispute, I don't think it is that simple, and look deeper into the causes of acccidents.
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...try berthing a 50ft flybridge mobo in a cross tide or cross wind situation...

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I don't dispute there are difficult aspects to motorboat handling - that is why I use the terms "as a generalisation" and "a lot of the time". But those difficulties equally apply to sail boats in the same circumstances. Why do you think sail boats use their engines for docking and close quarter situations - because it is easier to do it under power than under sail.
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...Agree that it takes time to learn which strings to pull on a sail boat but since most sail boats go everywhere under power and few seem to ever raise their sails, most sailboaters don't seem to have learnt either

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I wouldn't say most, but a lot do. See above - some people do use the motor much more than sails because it is often easier, they are just being lazy. For instance if I am just nipping over to the Hamble for the night to visit family and there isn't much wind or it is on the nose, I will often motor to beat the foul tide - it means I get there quicker. The journey is just a means to an end. It's also called having options - I have an engine and I will use it if I want.

 

[alant]

Taking it down to the very basic level anyone who can drive a car can drive a motor boat to a lesser or greater degree.
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How many people are competant at parking a car?

Hi speed MoBo, is a completely different situation to berthing one.