Doom and gloom, state of the economy, blah, blah, blah.

[Drewster]

Bullying is when people go on internet threads and start openly discussing specific deals in public and that eventually leads to a dealer having to act against their wishes. What's done behind closed doors is between the buyer and the seller.

I am totally in favour of raising the subject, seeing what other people think giving the trade an insight into how people feel. It is then up to the trade to act as they see fit.

I didn't want to see my thread progress further than a voicing of opinion.

I hope that explains the context in which I used the phrase.


Henry

Henry I love you

 

[jrudge]

I dont think that net net much has changed.

I was involved at a business level in the boat trade for a while and whilst I wont name manufacturers the typical margin in a boat to a dealer was (is?) about 25%. This can vary depending on deals done by the manufacturer - just like cars - order a load more to help us out and take them on stocking and we will do you a deal.

I can categorically say (from 1st hand personal knowledge) that boats were being sold with the sort of discounts being referred to here pre 2007. It is all about supply and demand and balancing the two. The manufactures were making more and more and the dealers had to shift more and more. The dealers have to buy stock to keep their franchise. Then they need to insure it, moor it and finance it on stocking. Once they own it they need to get rid of it and the customer can just as well buy a Fairline as a Princess or a Sunseeker.

The rules are the same today - there are less buyers, but they are making less boats. Who knows maybe the lower supply has biased it more in the dealers favour?

In the motor trade the only thing new car sales typically give you is franchise service work - you dont really make much money - but on second hand cars - here you can make money as you can get a genuine margin between the two.

Is it on its knees? Not really - this is just the new norm. The hey day was the blip - this is reality. People work hard and some will by a boat or a porsche. The days of getting a daft idea paid out for millions, but never mind I can borrow lots anyway are long gone and could never be considered "normal".

 

[ari]

Do you guys not understand the concept of "Advertised", ie. openly published for all to see.

H.

I very much doubt Mercedes "transparently advertised" £16,000 off a £46,000 car but either way, so what? Whether it's that deal or Ford sticking a list price of £25K on a mid range Focus only for dealers to advertise the cars for sale at £19,999, it's exactly the same as that which you're railing against in the boat world, sticking it up for figure x and discounting substantially to y to make a sale.

Ultimately however, I'm sure boat dealers would love to do as you suggest, stick a "fair" (whatever that is) price in the window and say "that's it, no discount available". Would it work? Well, did you ask Princess what they were asking for their boat and then simply write out a cheque for that amount? Or did you take that as their opening gambit and start to haggle?

Because I suspect therein lies your answer as to whether it really would work in reality...

 

[henryf]

How can you doubt the transparency of Mercedes' advertising when I put up links to a couple of cars they were advertising at the price mentioned (actually one was a little lower).

Since you ask the question I paid the sticker price for our current boat. I did try but there wasn't a bean off. Well actually I got a little bit of work thrown in but we're talking 1% or so of the value so to all intents and purposes I paid the asking price.

Henry

 

[ari]

How can you doubt the transparency of Mercedes' advertising when I put up links to a couple of cars they were advertising at the price mentioned (actually one was a little lower).

Since you ask the question I paid the sticker price for our current boat. I did try but there wasn't a bean off. Well actually I got a little bit of work thrown in but we're talking 1% or so of the value so to all intents and purposes I paid the asking price.

Henry

Woah woah, back the truck up Jack!

So your whole thread has been about how boat dealers bang on 20% to knock 20% off, yet in your own personal experience, actually they don't!?

 

[henryf]

I have a very good relationship with the people at Princess having spoken to them at length over a number of years and having bought 2 boats from them. The nature of my business means I am quite comfortable discussing prices and I understand that when you come to sell your boat it isn't worth what you paid for it. I am under no illusion as to how things work.

The guys can be direct with me and we don't have to play games. In this case the boat was somewhat unique and whilst I judged it based on the used boats I had been looking at in reality it bridged new and used. A unique opportunity required one off pricing and I felt they got it about right. The fact Princess are able to do this with me is the reason I purchase from them coupled with the fact I like the product of course.

As I said earlier I'm loath to look at individual deals because that's not fair to both sides and I don't want to see dealers bullied into acting against their wishes. I think we have established that advertised prices and achieved prices can vary quite significantly in the boating world. In my case the boat was never advertised and so should be disregarded in the context of this discussion.

Henry

 

[ari]

So you got a new boat, but at a discounted price?

You spoke to them, they offered you a deal, you bought the boat. Presumably if they hadn't offered you a good discount and had instead said "there's the list price matey, take it or leave it", you'd have left it?

So by doing a deal, offering a discount, they sold the boat.

They took a cut out of their profit that they judged was acceptable to them to make a sale.
That's what they're in business to do isn't it?

Are you suggesting that you never do that to sell a car that's been in stock a while?

Sorry Henry, I'm obviously being obtuse, but I'm rather struggling to see the problem here...

 

[henryf]

Without going into the specifics my boat was not typical of the majority offered for sale.

We are starting to go over old ground here and the answer to your question is covered within the thread. Cars generally sell for pretty much their advertised price. In the case of a run out model like the Mercedes mentioned the substantial discount against RRP was mirrored in openly advertised prices, ditto the Ford.

With boats you rarely if ever seem to see openly advertised prices which accurately reflect actual prices paid and that is clouding the market.

In the case of used boats I believe that is causing people to think the market is depressed and on its knees when it isn't.

Henry

 

[ari]

Without going into the specifics my boat was not typical of the majority offered for sale.

We are starting to go over old ground here and the answer to your question is covered within the thread. Cars generally sell for pretty much their advertised price. In the case of a run out model like the Mercedes mentioned the substantial discount against RRP was mirrored in openly advertised prices, ditto the Ford.

With boats you rarely if ever seem to see openly advertised prices which accurately reflect actual prices paid and that is clouding the market.

I expect every new boat buyer believes his deal was a special case...

Fact is that you (presumably) needed a good deal offered to you in order to sell you the boat (for which I don't blame you, buyer's market and all that) and I'm sure that's the case with almost all new boat sales at the moment. Dealers are having to respond and do deals which no doubt they'd rather not. Ultimately, dealers are responding to the market (ie you and all the other boat buyers) and burning margin to move boats. That's business right now.

In the case of used boats I believe that is causing people to think the market is depressed and on its knees when it isn't.

The nature of used boats (like used houses) is that the vast majority are for sale by their owners. I agree with a great deal that you've written about this, but people believing their boats (and houses) are still worth what they were in the boom times is nothing new and way beyond the control of boat dealers. As has been said, a broker can refuse to list an optimistically priced boat, but another broker will list it and will then get the sale when the owner eventually has to get real.


Henry [/QUOTE]

 

[rubberduck]

If its any help to you guy's, our business is moving stuff around, & there is a hell of a lot moving at the moment, & a lot of new start ups with good ideas not to mention exports beginning to pick up. It will recover, but maybe take a little longer this time, history repeats itself, its a circle & from what I am seeing its just started on the way up. Always look on the bright side

 

[skpt]

the daughter of a colleague of my wife was gazzumped this week albeit for about the only £150k house in southampton

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

As I said earlier I'm loath to look at individual deals because that's not fair to both sides and I don't want to see dealers bullied into acting against their wishes. I think we have established that advertised prices and achieved prices can vary quite significantly in the boating world. In my case the boat was never advertised and so should be disregarded in the context of this discussion.

I thought you were in favour of transparency?

 

[henryf]

I thought you were in favour of transparency?

I am. Unfortunately the nature of random people hiding behind funny made up names on an internet forum is they often take it upon themselves to gang up and "force" companies or individuals to do things they rather wouldn't. The most extreme example of this would be people killing themselves. I don't want to have corporate blood on my hands.

We are dealing with companies who employ real people here. I have a genuine belief that transparent pricing would be a great help to the industry for the reasons explained. Whilst I'm passionate about that I'm not involved in the industry and so there is a point beyond which I don't think it fair to tread on a forum such as this.

I have done my bit, aired my views and opened up discussion to the floor. There is plenty for those involved to contemplate. They may do nothing, they may want to do something but can't or they may instigate change but it needs to be done over a period of time. Who knows.

Henry

 

[jrudge]

The joy of the internet is its transparency, but of course it is mostly down to the view of the buyer (in this type of case) being happy or not with revealing the deal done.

Revealing the deal one to one is also different to "going public".

We are in Business To Business sales of software. Most of our deals are at list but there are deals done depending on volume, time of month, and a host of other factors ( just like any business - get us on the right day).

We simply wont do deals that we would worry about being made public - I could always give someone a huge discount, but it just devalues what we sell and the internet and small markets being what they are work will always get out in the end.

The deals done on cars are pretty transparent, and I don't thing boats are that different. But transparency does not mean single fixed pricing - your bloke who owns a business will always want a deal.

 

[ari]

I am. Unfortunately the nature of random people hiding behind funny made up names on an internet forum is they often take it upon themselves to gang up and "force" companies or individuals to do things they rather wouldn't. The most extreme example of this would be people killing themselves. I don't want to have corporate blood on my hands.

We are dealing with companies who employ real people here. I have a genuine belief that transparent pricing would be a great help to the industry for the reasons explained. Whilst I'm passionate about that I'm not involved in the industry and so there is a point beyond which I don't think it fair to tread on a forum such as this.

I have done my bit, aired my views and opened up discussion to the floor. There is plenty for those involved to contemplate. They may do nothing, they may want to do something but can't or they may instigate change but it needs to be done over a period of time. Who knows.

Henry

I think it's been a very interesting discussion and I do agree with a lot of what you say.

However I still really don't get this call for "transparency", there already is complete transparency in boat prices, it's called a price list and it very transparently explains the price of every model.

Beyond that, yes no doubt deals are done. In the current very tough climate often very good deals that no doubt eat up a lot of their profit margin to encourage people like yourself to buy boats that they otherwise wouldn't (would you have paid list price?) In better times they'll no doubt be tougher on discounts but surely it's a little bit naive to expect deals not to be done?

I did ask you earlier whether you ever do deals below your asking price to shift cars that are sticking and been in stock a while but you rather un-transparently didn't answer...

Yes they could go further and publish the price they paid for the boat too, or the very very lowest price they could possibly accept if they gave all their profit margin away, but I still can't see how that would be helpful, and I don't see the price you paid for your stock anywhere on your web site either...

 

[diligaf]

Has profit become a dirty word? I bets it goes someway to paying for all the nice add ons in boat ownership (good back up, boat show VIP tickets etc).

I agree with Henry for the most part but just remember, without PROFIT MOST OF US WOULDN'T OWN BOATS!!!!!

 

[rubberduck]

Just because we make a profit it doesn't mean all those boat dealers & manufacturers should be able to do likewise. Just who do they think they are.

 

[diligaf]

I know, it's ok for everyone to make a profit apart form boat dealers and builders, they clearly do it for free!

 

[henryf]

No we don't generally do deals on our cars. We try to price things at what they are worth, it makes it much easier to sell them. if we decide to reduce the price of a car we do it on the website. We want as many people as possible to know its available at the lower price, but it rarely happens.

What's the point in advertising a car for £20k if you're happy to take £15k and more importantly when every one you sell makes £15k. Seeing all the cars advertised at £20k knowing they aren't actually going to make it would undermine confidence and make it all but impossible to guess actual values with a knock on to second hand prices. Add to the mix all used cars being sold by brokers powerless to determine asking prices and you can see how things would deteriorate.

Fortunately the car market is somewhat ahead of the boat market to the point where prices are incredibly accurate allowing lots of confidence. We don't measure stock turnaround in years or months, quite often they are sold within hours. You can only do that when the buyer knows what actual markets values are.

Transparency.

Henry

 

[henryf]

Has profit become a dirty word? I bets it goes someway to paying for all the nice add ons in boat ownership (good back up, boat show VIP tickets etc).

I agree with Henry for the most part but just remember, without PROFIT MOST OF US WOULDN'T OWN BOATS!!!!!

When have I ever bemoaned the profit made?

I have no issue with making profit, in fact it is essential. Without it your supplier will fail, won't be able to provide on going support and won't invest in product improvement.

I'm trying to quell the misconception of a struggling market and understand why people think it so.

Henry