Does the survey go with the boat.

[Tranona]

In your position about to shell out £100k+ I would have my own survey which is likely to find things the previous one missed and maybe the issues resulting in rejection are not what they seem! To me the big advantage of your own survey is that he is working for you and you can be present while he is doing it. You then have the opportunity of clarifying things as you go along rather than relying on just a written report. Money and time well spent when buying a boat of this value and complexity.

 

[Laser310]

After some detective work, I emailed several surveyors in my area and one positively replied. They are of the view that they are the copyright holder and should I want a copy they are the people to see for it.

I wouldn't use a surveyor who did not agree that _I_ own the survey after having paid for it.

 

[Refueler]

If it was bad enough for someone to walk away - will the insurer want a follow up survey to prove work done?

It’s not a bag of sweets though - so the analogy fails. I think your point is however that it really depends on the T&Cs of the contract (explicit or implied) between the surveyor and those instructing him. My last survey was quite clear that it was for my own use only and I had no right to “resell” it. There’s a chain of three previous surveys covering its entire life so will be added to the file at the point of sale. Importantly, the subsequent recipients will have even less (zero) ability to sue the surveyor than I would for any faults with the survey.

No - I can gift you a book of CD but it doesn’t entitle you to do anything you want with it.

CD / Music / Books are a different ball game all together .... they actually have clauses / copyright matters that a yacht Survey report does not have ... are you aware that if you own a book or CD - under EU law - you can make copies for personal use - as long as you can produce the original to prove you are the owner ? Producer of the CD / Book can only legally stop you in the USA and such mediaeval countries !!

Surveys are a SERVICE item ... and Client pays for a Service and rights to confidentiality. As Client he also retains the rights to the results.

If a surveyor told me "that it was for my own use only and I had no right to “resell” it." I would not be using his services no matter how good he is ... but I would inform him clearly that as a Client I reserve right to do what I wish with the report. If he doesn't like that - then its a tough life - he can ind someone else to give him a job.

I've been in this business decades .. and I have a lot of work because I respect the rights of clients.

We can debate it here - but out in the market - its non-debatable.

 

[Refueler]

In your position about to shell out £100k+ I would have my own survey which is likely to find things the previous one missed and maybe the issues resulting in rejection are not what they seem! To me the big advantage of your own survey is that he is working for you and you can be present while he is doing it. You then have the opportunity of clarifying things as you go along rather than relying on just a written report. Money and time well spent when buying a boat of this value and complexity.

Absolutely ... I always asked the Client to be present - then all matters could be discussed ... I get a feeling for what the Client wants - he gets discussion about solving any points found etc etc.
For me - the inspection was only a foundation event .. there was far more to it than that ...
It was not unknown for me to find out from Client what he was looking for and then to advise him - the boat we were looking at might not be what he wants - a number of times - actually suggesting another ( I never had any commission or interest in any boat sales) ... my concern was the Client.

 

[Refueler]

I wouldn't use a surveyor who did not agree that _I_ own the survey after having paid for it.

+100%

Its like buying a car and then dealer can drive it !!

TBH - so many ridiculous items I witnessed with some 'surveyors' in UK - I wondered where they came from ...

One in particular - well known - stepped over the line so far - I was amazed that he was still 'alive' ...

Westerly Pageant ... owner passed away and his Widow was not a boater - put it to a broker for sale.

I was interested in Pageants / Centaur at the time ... wanting to move u from my Snap 23.

Boat was immaculate .. engine (original Volvo looked and ran like it was just out of box). Mast chainplates had been extended with excellent stainless steel adaptors so mast was simple job to lower etc.
Boat was priced a bit high - but was one of the best maintained examples I had seen.

I was also interested in a Sunrider 25 - which I agreed price on and bought. I was polite and explained to Broker / Widow that I found the Pageant to be a good boat and I would expect her to sell.

Few weeks later ... a close friend of mine who had a Yacht Repair Company called me and mentioned a Pageant he was to do work on ... it was the same boat.

I drove round to his yard and we discussed the work list he had for the boat ... he remembered I had mentioned this boat after seeing it.

Work list included :

1. Strip hull ready for Osmosis treatment. Surveyor to conduct Meter readings and control process.
2. Remove all non standard chainplate fittings and replace with fittings supplied by Surveyor.
3. Remove Volvo engine - box up for Surveyor to dispose
4. Remove / replace bearers with Surveyor supplied
5. Fit and align replacement engine supplied by Surveyor

I was totally 'gobsmacked' by this ... not one of those jobs was needed in any form whatsoever ...

My pal telephoned the Surveyor in front of me and asked about the above and was told in quite rude terms - Do as told ...

When the boat was trucked in .. we both looked her over just to be sure it was same as when I saw before ...

My pal then contacted the Widow and told her straight that the all the listed work was unnecessary and if such as engine was taken out - she had the right to dispose of and benefit from its sale.
Finally she was convinced not to replace the engine - but because Broker had mentioned Osmosis (boat was dry !) - she insisted on having it done - but agreed that my Pal would meter and control.
The Chainplates - she at least knew the originals were carefully wrapped and stored on board and they were used.

The Surveyor was not happy to see some 'dubious' profiteering by him lost ...

 

[ylop]

If a surveyor told me "that it was for my own use only and I had no right to “resell” it." I would not be using his services no matter how good he is ... but I would inform him clearly that as a Client I reserve right to do what I wish with the report. If he doesn't like that - then its a tough life - he can ind someone else to give him a job.

In recent times he’d have had no issue finding another client - you might have found it harder to find another surveyor who was willing to accept your demands (or at least not to charge you extra for being “non-standard”).

I’m telling you the words that were in a standard U.K. leisure boat survey in 2022. Similar wording was seen in at least 2 of the three previous surveys handed over with the rest of the boat documentation (all different surveyors). So it seems pretty standard here.

I've been in this business decades .. and I have a lot of work because I respect the rights of clients.

We can debate it here - but out in the market - its non-debatable.

The point you’ve missed, is that even if you provide a copy of that survey to someone else, the contract is between client and surveyor. So the secondary recipient of the survey has no right of comeback on the surveyor. Of course many will say surveys come with such sweeping get out clauses that is irrelevant but if the surveyor was incompetent, grossly negligent or lazy and cut n pasted something from another report without checking it - you’d want the come back.

These issues were common in Scottish property buying until the introduction of Home Buyers reports which are intended to be “portable” but were then paid for by the vendor. In the boom in property in the early 00’s surveyors were doing valuations (required to secure a mortgage so you could put in an offer) often surveying once and selling the same report 4 or 5 times over!

Declaring something “non-debatable” because it’s not how you chose to work is nonsense. It’s entirely debatable and entirely appropriate that the OP is informed of how many leisure surveyors in the U.K. operate.

 

[AntarcticPilot]

Except in the USA, copyright always exists; it cannot not exist. Even in the USA, the only exception is for documents created using tax dollars. The presence or absence of the copyright symbol is immaterial except in proving that a violator was aware that the document was copyright. While I entirely agree that @Refueler has the right attitude, unless the surveyor explicitly assigns copyright in the report to the client, copyright remains with the surveyor and means that the surveyor has the right to dictate the use and readership of the report. Whether the surveyor does so is up to the surveyor - but unless the copyright is explicitly assigned to the client, the surveyor can impose conditions.

That said, if a third party has access to the survey and bases decisions on it, the third party has no relationship with the surveyor and cannot seek compensation from the surveyor if the survey is in error. Obviously, whether it is worth taking that risk depends a) on the value of the boat and b) the nature of any likely defects.

 

[steveeasy]

This matter has always troubled me.
The owner allows the potential buyer to carry out a survey on his boat as part of the contract .

The surveyor carry’s out a survey and is paid for that by the potential buyer. The survey is the potential buyers and no one else’s. He passes a copy to broker to highlight any issues.

I see no reason at all that this entitles the broker to pass it on to anyone.

What if the survey was incorrect or open to question. The owner could have a broker or prev potential buyer handing out something that stopped further potential buyers from interest .

Any new interested parties should carry out there own survey at their own expense.

Steveeasy

 

[Tranona]

This matter has always troubled me.
The owner allows the potential buyer to carry out a survey on his boat as part of the contract .

The surveyor carry’s out a survey and is paid for that by the potential buyer. The survey is the potential buyers and no one else’s. He passes a copy to broker to highlight any issues.

I see no reason at all that this entitles the broker to pass it on to anyone.

What if the survey was incorrect or open to question. The owner could have a broker or prev potential buyer handing out something that stopped further potential buyers from interest .

Any new interested parties should carry out there own survey at their own expense.

Steveeasy

The last sentence is correct. However there can be value in seeing any previous surveys. For example if, as in this case the earlier buyer pulled out following the survey which identified defects it is incumbent on the seller and broker to declare the possible defects if they have not been rectified. Showing a copy of the survey is good support for this and will help inform subsequent potential buyers.

 

[Never Grumble]

The surveyor carry’s out a survey and is paid for that by the potential buyer. The survey is the potential buyers and no one else’s. He passes a copy to broker to highlight any issues.

I would only send extracts from a survey I have paid for to both broker and/or vendor. I had an instance where a vendor effectively made it impossible for me to continue with a purchase and I suspect sold the boat for a little more than I had offered and had been agreed. I believe the 'next' buyer was given the list of defects I had identified and this was used to justify the slightly higher price. I could be bitter but we went and bought a bigger better boat.

 

[Minerva]

The last sentence is correct. However there can be value in seeing any previous surveys. For example if, as in this case the earlier buyer pulled out following the survey which identified defects it is incumbent on the seller and broker to declare the possible defects if they have not been rectified. Showing a copy of the survey is good support for this and will help inform subsequent potential buyers.

Is that so? I'll make sure to ask brokers about this from now on in my search.

I kinda feel sorry for the boat I had surveyed if the broker has to tell any prospective buyers that the bulkheads are suspect meanwhile the owner is paying yard fees which are clocking up. Horrible situation

 

[steveeasy]

I don’t think any obligation exists to provide either seller or broker with the survey unless its Written in the contract.
I’m not sure when a survey is given to a broker it’s intended as a gift to use at his will. It’s provided for him as information or evidence.
Steveeasy

 

[Refueler]

In recent times he’d have had no issue finding another client - you might have found it harder to find another surveyor who was willing to accept your demands (or at least not to charge you extra for being “non-standard”).

I’m telling you the words that were in a standard U.K. leisure boat survey in 2022. Similar wording was seen in at least 2 of the three previous surveys handed over with the rest of the boat documentation (all different surveyors). So it seems pretty standard here.

[/QUOTE]

Reports you have. That does not mean its standard or universal. I know I am not alone in my version of survey. I did not operate in a 'vacuum' unanware of others + the many friends / contacts in the industry.

The point you’ve missed, is that even if you provide a copy of that survey to someone else, the contract is between client and surveyor. So the secondary recipient of the survey has no right of comeback on the surveyor. Of course many will say surveys come with such sweeping get out clauses that is irrelevant but if the surveyor was incompetent, grossly negligent or lazy and cut n pasted something from another report without checking it - you’d want the come back.

These issues were common in Scottish property buying until the introduction of Home Buyers reports which are intended to be “portable” but were then paid for by the vendor. In the boom in property in the early 00’s surveyors were doing valuations (required to secure a mortgage so you could put in an offer) often surveying once and selling the same report 4 or 5 times over!

Declaring something “non-debatable” because it’s not how you chose to work is nonsense. It’s entirely debatable and entirely appropriate that the OP is informed of how many leisure surveyors in the U.K. operate.

No I have not missed the point as it is standard that responsibility of findings and results as a consequence are only between Original Client and Surveyor. Passing on a copy is purely an informative exercise with no obligation whatsoever. There is no 'contract' bewteen Client / Surveyor and another party. So I fail to understand how you think I am missing that issue ?

As to Scotland - in many areas of Judicial and Copyright - it may as well be USA / Latvia / Timbuktoo - as Scotland and England have always had differences ... I operated in England.

I made my position plain ... it does not change. Many years ago a certain Organisation tried to force me to change :
My billing basis - mine was plain LOA x Breadth,
My report format,
To be 'appraised' by them ..
I refused on the grounds that a) their billing was ridiculous and hard to justify on the multiplication factors they used, b) their reports were so full of 'get out' clauses - it literally could be written in back room and literally zero responsibility. c) having already surveyed a number of boats that the Organisation had already - I was shocked at the mistakes. So to be appraised by them ??

The above example of the Pageant was just one example of their work.

 

[Refueler]

This matter has always troubled me.
The owner allows the potential buyer to carry out a survey on his boat as part of the contract .

The surveyor carry’s out a survey and is paid for that by the potential buyer. The survey is the potential buyers and no one else’s. He passes a copy to broker to highlight any issues.

I see no reason at all that this entitles the broker to pass it on to anyone.

What if the survey was incorrect or open to question. The owner could have a broker or prev potential buyer handing out something that stopped further potential buyers from interest .

Any new interested parties should carry out there own survey at their own expense.

Steveeasy

I actually agree with you - Yacht Surveyors are NOT experts despite the books and online claims some make ..

They make errors - omissions ... which could hinder a fair sale by another buyer ....

I see no reason to pass a copy to Broker / Seller other than siting it to discuss possible reduction on price or agreement about work etc. If buyer decides not to buy - then why leave survey behind ? It may contain errors / omissions etc that can bias any further possible buyers.

 

[Refueler]

The last sentence is correct. However there can be value in seeing any previous surveys. For example if, as in this case the earlier buyer pulled out following the survey which identified defects it is incumbent on the seller and broker to declare the possible defects if they have not been rectified. Showing a copy of the survey is good support for this and will help inform subsequent potential buyers.

Also agreed - but look back at the Pageant post I made ... imagine you were next interested buyer and you read that report and the work had not been done ?
Luckily on that boat my Pal issued HIS report on completion of the work he did - which not only covered the work but also rest of the boat. That was given to Seller (Widow) and to Broker voiding the 'questionable' previous report ... boat sold literally of his blocks in the workshop within a few days.

 

[steveeasy]

The last sentence is correct. However there can be value in seeing any previous surveys. For example if, as in this case the earlier buyer pulled out following the survey which identified defects it is incumbent on the seller and broker to declare the possible defects if they have not been rectified. Showing a copy of the survey is good support for this and will help inform subsequent potential buyers.

The last sentence is correct. However there can be value in seeing any previous surveys. For example if, as in this case the earlier buyer pulled out following the survey which identified defects it is incumbent on the seller and broker to declare the possible defects if they have not been rectified. Showing a copy of the survey is good support for this and will help inform subsequent potential buyers.

Yes I agree. But the seller does not necessarily have or own a copy of the survey. Unless he has been given a copy of the survey to use.
It does ask a question that in providing a copy of something you own(the buyers survey he and only him paid for). Is it given to own or given as evidence to highlight potential faults.

If I gave a friend a winch. I would think he could do what he liked with it. Selll it.

When I write a letter say of complaint or report. It’s not gifted in the same way. Or is it?

Steveeasy

 

[lustyd]

So the secondary recipient of the survey has no right of comeback on the surveyor

Which is usually fine since surveyors never say the boat is fine. The useful parts are where they say things are not fine and need fixing. A secondary recipient is just getting the list of things that were found not to be fine, which is very useful.

but unless the copyright is explicitly assigned to the client, the surveyor can impose conditions.

As with books though, the person who buys a copy of the thing can do with it what they want as long as they don't copy or publish. I gave my copy of my survey to the broker, just like I gave away last year's Almanac. I agree that copyright would prevent me publishing it on the Internet or printing copies for sale, but I am free to resell my copy.

 

[Refueler]

I don’t think any obligation exists to provide either seller or broker with the survey unless its Written in the contract.
I’m not sure when a survey is given to a broker it’s intended as a gift to use at his will. It’s provided for him as information or evidence.
Steveeasy

No obligation at all .. its purely a report to identify possible issues and inform buyer whether its worth pursuing the purchase / discussing reduced offer / return of deposit etc.
In the case of reduced offer or return of deposit - usually Broker will ask to see survey report - but its buyers decision as to how much of report he passes over or lets Broker see. Obviously it would have to be sufficient to support buyers position.

 

[Tranona]

Is that so? I'll make sure to ask brokers about this from now on in my search.

I kinda feel sorry for the boat I had surveyed if the broker has to tell any prospective buyers that the bulkheads are suspect meanwhile the owner is paying yard fees which are clocking up. Horrible situation

Just to clarify both the seller and broker are required to describe the boat honestly and if a survey shows up suspect bulkheads then it would be wise to modify the description before offering the boat to other buyers. There is no obligation to disclose the survey, but it may be helpful to have it available. Apart from possible misrepresentation it is not good to have successive sales fall through because of the same undeclared defect. Of course "suspect" is maybe a matter of opinion!

On a boat I rejected the seller was quite good about as he was genuinely surprised by the defects and actually had them rectified before putting it on the market again. He used my survey together with a report on the completed work (by the same surveyor) and the boat sold fairly quickly.

 

[Never Grumble]

Is that so? I'll make sure to ask brokers about this from now on in my search.

I kinda feel sorry for the boat I had surveyed if the broker has to tell any prospective buyers that the bulkheads are suspect meanwhile the owner is paying yard fees which are clocking up. Horrible situation

I suspect that depends on how the question is framed. If a broker has seen a previous survey that identifies a defect and is asked "have you seen any previous surveys, are you aware of any previously identified defects?" then to answer in the negative would be misrepresentation, whether the misrepresentation would come to light is another matter.