Do you still beat to windward ?

[Greenheart]

As opposed to just being close hauled. Maybe there are less people sailing, and the rivers are clearer of traffic, but this season seems more people doing so. Are you still up for it?

Is it very cynical of me to wonder about the motivation of people who post a curiously bland question, then ignore the thread for a week while dozens of others contribute / drift / disagree?

I'm tempted to ask whether people are steering more, these days. Seems to me there's more steering happening. Discuss your reasons.

(Not really!)

 

[LONG_KEELER]

Is it very cynical of me to wonder about the motivation of people who post a curiously bland question, then ignore the thread for a week while dozens of others contribute / drift / disagree?

I'm tempted to ask whether people are steering more, these days. Seems to me there's more steering happening. Discuss your reasons.

(Not really!)

Damn you and all your kind

I don't think an OP owns a thread because they often drift to other places . Perhaps even more interesting and informative than the original question asked. It's nice to see how fellow sailors feel and approach all kinds of sailing situations , particularly those with great experience and lots of mileage. OP's might not always respond themselves later but the replies are certainly appreciated whatever they happen to be.

I'm surprised that nobody has mentioned wives/partners that don't like heeling and therefore do little windward work. This was certainly the case with me and I used to get looks around the 15-20 degree mark from my wife. On all other points of sail she was fine , and if anything , coped much better with heavy winds than I did.

Because sailing has taken a bit of a knock lately , the keen one's are still at it and perhaps clearer cruising areas have given me the impression that more are sailing wherever possible and even prepared to short tack up rivers etc.

I agree with Dan Tribe that a boat really comes to life on the wind . VMG on GPS helps so much now but am surprised that pinching often fares better than sailing full and bye.

 

[johnalison]

I agree with Dan Tribe that a boat really comes to life on the wind . VMG on GPS helps so much now but am surprised that pinching often fares better than sailing full and bye.

That's what I have found and occasionally mentioned. It would be interesting to hear from the racing chaps how they manage windward work. On the other hand, pinching is only really practical in smooth water. If you are being thrown around too much, you probably lose more than you gain, and the boat will tend to be stopped by the odd wave.

 

[{151760}]

If 'pinching' does better ' than full and bye', it isn't pinching, in my book. It's good sailing. It means paying constant attention to every tiny variation in the wind and sail trim. If you sail full and bye, you can concentrate a little less and pay more attention to your g&t. 'Pinching' is when you sail so high that the sails become inefficient and you make so much leeway that you lose ground to windward, I'd say.

 

[lw395]

If 'pinching' does better ' than full and bye', it isn't pinching, in my book. It's good sailing. It means paying constant attention to every tiny variation in the wind and sail trim. If you sail full and bye, you can concentrate a little less and pay more attention to your g&t. 'Pinching' is when you sail so high that the sails become inefficient and you make so much leeway that you lose ground to windward, I'd say.

I'd say pinching also covers when you are achieving a high track, but at the cost of speed.
So you might usefully pinch to get around a mark to avoid two tacks.

 

[{151760}]

I'd say pinching also covers when you are achieving a high track, but at the cost of speed.
So you might usefully pinch to get around a mark to avoid two tacks.

I'd go along with that.

 

[johnalison]

I would generally agree, but when I said that pinching produced a better VMG, I meant that the luff of the jib was actually lifting at the point when the best progress was being made, something that I would normally seek to avoid.

 

[Greenheart]

I agree with Dan Tribe that a boat really comes to life on the wind.

I'll go along with that. Not having any auxiliary makes me wonder what drives people who buy a sailing yacht, but routinely start the diesel, disregarding a point of sailing which could have allowed useful progress.

On the other hand, also having no ballast, I'm accustomed to using any and every method to control heeling in a breeze...which often includes bearing away from close-hauled.

 

[{151760}]

I would generally agree, but when I said that pinching produced a better VMG, I meant that the luff of the jib was actually lifting at the point when the best progress was being made, something that I would normally seek to avoid.

Yes, that's definitely pinching. I'm very surprised that you got a better VMG that way. But boats are all different, after all.

 

[charles_reed]

Mixing tight chedules and sailing are a recipe for disaster.

Time pressure can lead to beating and, in some cases, stress-of-weather incidents.

But sometimes one has to beat - the distances people quote are, IMHO, so minute as to be irrelevant.

Yesterday I had a 63nm beat, but I was thoroughly glad I had no crew. Today I'm having a rest and recovering from it. The experience is not one I'd subject most people to, though there were some pleasant moments. And because it's the Med and water @ 26C, no foul-weather gear, just bathers.

 

[johnalison]

Mixing tight chedules and sailing are a recipe for disaster.

Time pressure can lead to beating and, in some cases, stress-of-weather incidents.

But sometimes one has to beat - the distances people quote are, IMHO, so minute as to be irrelevant.

Yesterday I had a 63nm beat, but I was thoroughly glad I had no crew. Today I'm having a rest and recovering from it. The experience is not one I'd subject most people to, though there were some pleasant moments. And because it's the Med and water @ 26C, no foul-weather gear, just bathers.

This is where I get confused. Do you mean that you sailed 63m directly to windward, which is impressive, or do you mean that you sailed close-hauled for 63 m, which is just a long day's sail, or do you mean that your distance sailed was 63m, while beating to a destination maybe 40m to windward?

 

[lw395]

This is where I get confused. Do you mean that you sailed 63m directly to windward, which is impressive, or do you mean that you sailed close-hauled for 63 m, which is just a long day's sail, or do you mean that your distance sailed was 63m, while beating to a destination maybe 40m to windward?

It's still a beat if you do 63NM on one tack and 1NM on the other.
Or if you get the windshift right and don't sail anywhere near 1.4x the rhumb line.
Whether it's an ordeal or not depends on conditions and whether you actually enjoy sailing....

 

[JumbleDuck]

I'll go along with that. Not having any auxiliary makes me wonder what drives people who buy a sailing yacht, but routinely start the diesel, disregarding a point of sailing which could have allowed useful progress.:

Comfort.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Yes, that's definitely pinching. I'm very surprised that you got a better VMG that way.

I would define "pinching" as "sailing so close-hauled that VMG decreases, normally to avoid tacking around an obstacle" In other words, if it improves your VMG it isn't pinching.

 

[johnalison]

It's still a beat if you do 63NM on one tack and 1NM on the other.
Or if you get the windshift right and don't sail anywhere near 1.4x the rhumb line.
Whether it's an ordeal or not depends on conditions and whether you actually enjoy sailing....

Your first example is just about a beat, but not one that I would describe as such myself. It was the lack of clarity that I was questioning, mainly about the distance travelled, which could have been anything from 63 to about ninety. I have heard from sailors claiming to have sailed a hundred miles to windward, without really knowing what they meant. Often, it has transpired that they sailed across the North Sea in one leg but close-hauled.

 

[{151760}]

I would define "pinching" as "sailing so close-hauled that VMG decreases, normally to avoid tacking around an obstacle" In other words, if it improves your VMG it isn't pinching.

My definition of pinching is when you sail so high that the jib luff lifts. This would normally mean that your VMG decreases. But hard-and-fast definitions are best avoided in sailing, I think.

 

[KREW2]

It's still a beat if you do 63NM on one tack and 1NM on the other.
Or if you get the windshift right and don't sail anywhere near 1.4x the rhumb line.
Whether it's an ordeal or not depends on conditions and whether you actually enjoy sailing....

By definition maybe a beat, but....... it really isn't is it?

I make a passage plan and try to stick to it, if that means putting on the engine to make a tidal gate then so be it..
One of my longest channel crossings, south to north was done dead down wind, with rolly sea. Even with a gybe preventer we were slewing round and the main was backing. In the end I decided to take advantage of the last hour and a half of the tide running east, and headed for the eastern side of the Isle of Wight, then gybed and head back to Weymouth.
I was surprised, although marginally better it didn't make that much difference.
Knowing what I know now, next time the genoa will be furled and the engine will go on.

 

[jac]

My definition of pinching is when you sail so high that the jib luff lifts. This would normally mean that your VMG decreases. But hard-and-fast definitions are best avoided in sailing, I think.

That's my definition of pinching - slowing down but pointing higher. In the wrong place, a catalyst for side swiping an anchored boat.

 

[KREW2]

That's my definition of pinching - slowing down but pointing higher. In the wrong place, a catalyst for side swiping an anchored boat.

Indeed, or being blown onto a pot buoy you are trying to pinch around.

 

[lw395]

That's my definition of pinching - slowing down but pointing higher. In the wrong place, a catalyst for side swiping an anchored boat.

Pinching is often much more subtle than that. Racing in one-designs, if you obsess with pointing and your speed drops to lose you a boat length or two in a half mile beat, that's pinching.