Birdseye
Well-Known Member
Only when racing
Do you still beat to windward ?
- Thread starter LONG_KEELER
- Start date
Only when racing
FWB
N/A
lw395
Well-Known Member
The engine is mostly for flat calms and getting in and out of harbour.
I wouldn't buy a boat that was poor to windward.
Generally we plan to make good use of tides, so beating or motoring against the tide is minimal.
If we are sailing along the coast, I'm more likely to amend the destination than to motor all day.
I wouldn't buy a boat that was poor to windward.
Generally we plan to make good use of tides, so beating or motoring against the tide is minimal.
If we are sailing along the coast, I'm more likely to amend the destination than to motor all day.
Poignard
Well-Known Member
Conor O'Brien, the famous Irish yachtsman and circumnavigator, came to the conclusion that the best yacht for cruising would have a square sail for best performance off the wind and a powerful engine for going to windward and entering/leaving ports.
It seems odd that nowadays we mostly have yachts with the Bermudan rig best suited for going to windward but very many yachtsmen prefer to use their engines.
I think O'Brien had a point.
It seems odd that nowadays we mostly have yachts with the Bermudan rig best suited for going to windward but very many yachtsmen prefer to use their engines.
I think O'Brien had a point.
lw395
Well-Known Member
If these 'yachtsmen' prefer to motor everywhere, why don't they buy motor boats?
Sgeir
Well-Known Member
I may be a bit slow of the uptake, so I am having difficulty understanding the OP's question.
Also, in relation to the responses, why does being close hauled, as opposed to beating to windward, imply the use of engine power?
Genuine questions as I'm clearly missing something here.
Also, in relation to the responses, why does being close hauled, as opposed to beating to windward, imply the use of engine power?
Genuine questions as I'm clearly missing something here.
Poignard
Well-Known Member
Sails are pretty
RupertW
Well-Known Member
We are happy to do the close hauled thing (which I interprete the OP meaning as beating on a favourable tack but then motorsailing the last short bit once it's a dead beat) but do like to keep in practice tacking.
After three separate mistakes we found ourselves after an overnight sail having to tack up 40 miles of coast with a 1-3 knot current (not a tide so no respite in a few hours) lumpy waves and 15-25 knots against us with an empty fuel tank. It was a real lesson in how well or otherwise our boat could tack to reach the only possible harbour before darkness and I'm both glad we hadn't lost the knack but also appalled at our tacking angle over the ground which got as bad as 135 degrees at times, whatever the compass heading said.
So our plan next year is to do a bit more practicing and particularly try to work out why we could get a much better apparent wind angle on one tack (about 30 degrees apparent) than the other (40 plus) as that should have been symmetrical.
After three separate mistakes we found ourselves after an overnight sail having to tack up 40 miles of coast with a 1-3 knot current (not a tide so no respite in a few hours) lumpy waves and 15-25 knots against us with an empty fuel tank. It was a real lesson in how well or otherwise our boat could tack to reach the only possible harbour before darkness and I'm both glad we hadn't lost the knack but also appalled at our tacking angle over the ground which got as bad as 135 degrees at times, whatever the compass heading said.
So our plan next year is to do a bit more practicing and particularly try to work out why we could get a much better apparent wind angle on one tack (about 30 degrees apparent) than the other (40 plus) as that should have been symmetrical.
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jac
Well-Known Member
I'm interpreting as the following two defintions:
Close hauled - Vessel is sailing close hauled and will lay the destination on this tack as destination is at circa 45 degrees to the wind. SOG therefore equals VMG to destination
Beating - Vessel is sailing close hauled but will need to tack to lay the destination as destination is on the nose. SOG > VMG
jac
Well-Known Member
We will beat if it's a relatively short passage and we don't have a strong tide against us. Against say a solent spring I would go backwards if beating.
On a longer passage - say cross Lyme bay I would motorsail if VMG was really poor ( less than 4 knots) SWMBO and I both work and we sail with young children. STaying out an extra 4-5 hours would use up mucho brownie points
On a longer passage - say cross Lyme bay I would motorsail if VMG was really poor ( less than 4 knots) SWMBO and I both work and we sail with young children. STaying out an extra 4-5 hours would use up mucho brownie points
colind3782
Well-Known Member
Only if there's enough searoom for one zig and one zag! Does that count?
Sgeir
Well-Known Member
Thanks. That was more or less my understanding, although not certain that coming about or tacking is a necessary component of beating to windward.
I'm really more puzzled by the inference being drawn that being close hauled means motorsailing.
If we're beating to windward and having to tack, then I would normally expect that we'd be close hauled. I just do not get the connection with motorsailing.
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jac
Well-Known Member
So I agree - I don't think you need to tack to be beating, just trying to differentiate between the meanings in OP.
As for motorsailing. I assume OP means the practice of engine on, mainsail pinned in, maybe 20 degrees off the wind whereby you lay the direct course due to the engine but the main is up, mainly for stability / visibility/ pride rather than propulsive effort!
D
Deleted member 36384
Guest
You do need to tack to beat. If you beat to windward you will put a tack into get to your destination, thats how it was taught to me and how I have always heard it explained. I checked the definition in 'Seamanship In The Age of Sail' and it is very clear on it, 'if the ship could not steer her course, because she was being headed by the wind, she reached her goal by making a series of zigzags or boards ...... at the end of each board she was tacked'. However, in 'RYA Sail Trim Handbook' in both the glossary and in the section on sailing to windward it just states that beating is sailing up wind close hauled, there is no description that beating involves tacking.
I will stick with the definition that to beat to windward means you have to tack to get to the upwind destination. Just as happy to see the term used as sailing closed hauled as well e.g. 'on a beat'.
I sail upwind, will beat to a destination unless I have a deadline to make. I like the challenge, it's part of sailing, being driven by the wind, navigating, pilotage - thats what I enjoy about the sport.
I will stick with the definition that to beat to windward means you have to tack to get to the upwind destination. Just as happy to see the term used as sailing closed hauled as well e.g. 'on a beat'.
I sail upwind, will beat to a destination unless I have a deadline to make. I like the challenge, it's part of sailing, being driven by the wind, navigating, pilotage - thats what I enjoy about the sport.
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MM5AHO
Well-Known Member
I suspect there are fewer of these "less" people about these days. The less ones can't see over the coaming!
tatali0n
Well-Known Member
Up this end of the Bristol Channel we invariably end up beating to windward one way or another. On the other hand, with the tides being what they are, even beating to wind with our old Griffon we can expect speeds over the ground to average over 5kts most days, often more.
As for sailing against the tide, we just don't. Doesn't matter what way you point the boat relative to it, she's going to go the same direction the tide is running regardless.
Couldn't understand why anybody would ever motor-sail. Then we moved the boat down to Swansea for the summer where the tides were relatively sedate by comparison. Trying to beat 35 miles into wind in an old Westerly Griffon when you don't have a 6kt tide under you to assist takes on a whole different complexion
As for sailing against the tide, we just don't. Doesn't matter what way you point the boat relative to it, she's going to go the same direction the tide is running regardless.
Couldn't understand why anybody would ever motor-sail. Then we moved the boat down to Swansea for the summer where the tides were relatively sedate by comparison. Trying to beat 35 miles into wind in an old Westerly Griffon when you don't have a 6kt tide under you to assist takes on a whole different complexion
ex-Gladys
Well-Known Member
Couldn't understand why anybody would ever motor-sail. Then we moved the boat down to Swansea for the summer where the tides were relatively sedate by comparison. Trying to beat 35 miles into wind in an old Westerly Griffon when you don't have a 6kt tide under you to assist takes on a whole different complexion
How about because the wind is light, and I can make 3 knots, engine running at 1200 rpm gives me 6-6.5 knots... Motor-Sailing....
Baggywrinkle
Well-Known Member
.... not to mention charging batteries and making hot water for the washing up and shower at the same time
tatali0n
Well-Known Member
My point exactly
There was me thinking I was something of a purist, sailing everywhere on point of principle, using the engine only as a last resort and to get in and out of the marina. In fact, I think the lessons of this summer tell me that up till then I've merely been using the big tides we get up our end of the Bristol Channel in place of an engine.
It was a lovely change having twelve weeks or so of sailing in waters where you only hit 3 knots of tidal flow at the peak of a spring tide and very often found yourself working across it to get where you wanted to go rather than directly into it, but I've never motor-sailed so much before in my life.
I am now, from the point of view of expedience at least, quite the convert.
dunedin
Well-Known Member
+1. In winds up to F4 we enjoy a good tactical beat to windward - including twice up the Sound of Mull this year (always remembering to tack in to the corner half way up to get the wind bend).
An efficient sailing boat (with twin wheels
means we generally point faster and higher than other boats, which makes more fun and still get to destination (faster than dead downwind in very light winds).In F5 plus we go a different direction - or wait for a better forecast.
Never ever motor sail to windward, though sometimes when wind drops away will motor if getting late.
