Do you don't you stopper knots

[Fr J Hackett]

Mrs C used to think the same when we first tried it, and TBH so did I. But familiarity, and the addition of a snuffer has tamed the beast. It’s all in the technique. With ours, bear off, kite collapses behind the main, blow the tack line and snuff it. You are now ready to beat. Lowering it to the tramp can wait.

Endless sheet is one piece of line from the clew, though one turning block, through the cockpit, though the other turning block, round the boat (outside the forestay clearly) and back to the clew. It’s slightly shorter than 2 sheets, and on our boat, less prone to tangling. It does need a knife to hand, but tbh, it isn’t under tension if the sheet is free to run.

So it's a cruising chute sheet not a spinnaker sheet or guy.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

So it's a cruising chute sheet not a spinnaker sheet or guy.

Asymmetric spinnaker, you’d call it. A fair bit more muscle than you’d have for a cruising chute. Flown off a 5ft bowsprit. Cruising chutes are baby things you fly off the bow.

 

[geem]

See #12

Might depend somewhat on the boat in question. Our cockpit emergency knife is perfectly positioned for such events. I would rather dump the halyard than release the sheets. From past experience of racing it was easy to recover from sheets and guy than when a spinnaker is full of wind flying from the mast head.

 

[Kukri]

Slightly off the topic but early in my sailing career - 51 years ago, in fact - I forgot to put a stopper in the mainsheet. I lost it in Pennyhole Bay, single handed.

A surprisingly difficult situation to recover from.

 

[dunedin]

And what of dinghies and cats that use continuous sheets? Just sayin'.).

Well, from what I have seen, when they know what they are doing they save a lot of wet rope, go faster and and do faster gybe etc.
When they get it wrong, with very short sheets, they capsize and swim. The good ones soon learn.
But capsize and swim are generally not good outcomes in a cruising yacht.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

Slightly off the topic but early in my sailing career - 51 years ago, in fact - I forgot to put a stopper in the mainsheet. I lost it in Pennyhole Bay, single handed.

A surprisingly difficult situation to recover from.

And the nearest I’ve come to dying on a multihull was on the RTI race. We gybed at Bembridge ledge, beam reach to Ryde sands. The boat was very new to us (F27, 25 years ago) and the mainsheet, it turned out, was too short and had a stopper knot. I eased it to the bitter end. The lee float ploughed in, went under. The boat stopped, the rig stalled, out popped the float, and on we went. With several more rolls in the jib. We all formed an orderly queue to change pants.

 

[dunedin]

Slightly off the topic but early in my sailing career - 51 years ago, in fact - I forgot to put a stopper in the mainsheet. I lost it in Pennyhole Bay, single handed.

A surprisingly difficult situation to recover from.

More off topic, but brother had a single ended spinnaker halyard in a 505 (not sure why not using chute at time). Halyard went out the self baler at speed - at bottom mark, unable to drop kite, as Elvstom self bailers had metal non return valve (for water, but also for ropes, it transpired). Helming a 505 with kite up in a breeze, with one finger down self bailer to press non return valve and other hand trying to retrieve halyard, it also transpires, was not easy. Didn’t end well - fast capsize with kite up and fingers still in bailer was messy.

 

[thinwater]

I am intrigued with the idea of a continuous spinnaker sheet or guy or do people mean furling line which is something quite different.

It is common on dinghies for the sheet to run from the jib or reacher clew, behind the mast to the winch or tackle and through the cockpit, and back to the clew on the other side. Advantages include:

• Cannot wash out of the cockpit.
• You can always reach the leeward (working) sheet from the windward rail.
• No tangles or need to flake the tails. Any twists caused by coiling or winching are self-correcting.
• Less sheet. The working tail feeds to the lazy sheet.
• Can't knot with themselves or other lines because there are no ends.

Disadvantage include:

• Can't let them run, but if they are long enough there is no need.
• Can't coil them out of the way. Unless there is a center cockpit and they run on the deck behind (the case in my PDQ) they are always on the sole. But you can coil up the excess, so it is only a single line crossing.

On my PDQ the genoa and reacher sheets are continuous. On my F-24 the reacher and spin sheets are continuous and the jib sheets are separate. On the Stiletto 27 both were continuous. Which is better depends on the cockpit layout and how the boat is sailed. I have converted both ways, if the other did not suit me.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

It is common on dinghies for the sheet to run from the jib or reacher clew, behind the mast to the winch or tackle and through the cockpit, and back to the clew on the other side. Advantages include:

• Cannot wash out of the cockpit.
• You can always reach the leeward (working) sheet from the windward rail.
• No tangles or need to flake the tails. Any twists caused by coiling or winching are self-correcting.
• Less sheet. The working tail feeds to the lazy sheet.
• Can't knot with themselves or other lines because there are no ends.

Disadvantage include:

• Can't let them run, but if they are long enough there is no need.
• Can't coil them out of the way. Unless there is a center cockpit and they run on the deck behind (the case in my PDQ) they are always on the sole. But you can coil up the excess, so it is only a single line crossing.

On my PDQ the genoa and reacher sheets are continuous. On my F-24 the reacher and spin sheets are continuous and the jib sheets are separate. On the Stiletto 27 both were continuous. Which is better depends on the cockpit layout and how the boat is sailed. I have converted both ways, if the other did not suit me.

I appreciate that and perhaps the mistake I make is concentrating of larger yachts where the thought of a continuous sheet or guy on a spinnaker is somewhat alarming or at least to me it is.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

My multihull experience is similar. Continuous sheets can work well, and don’t present a safety issue. If I was using tein sheets, I’d probably have stoppers in them. They’d be able to run outright to the sheer, no other fairlead apart from the sheeting point. On our current boat that would add 3m of sheet run out.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

I appreciate that and perhaps the mistake I make is concentrating of larger yachts where the thought of a continuous sheet or guy on a spinnaker is somewhat alarming or at least to me it is.

I think it’s the general nature of the question. Boats aren’t the same, theres no single solution. If you’ve got a symmetric kite on a 40 foot mono, continuous sheets would be beyond madness.

 

[thinwater]

It seems to me that with the main, having enough sheet to reach the shrouds is normal, so a stopper hurts nothing and prevents a difficult recovery. But that was not the thread.

What about stoppers on kite halyards? I've heard arguments against. For example, if you have an MOB, are you better to lose the chute and get back faster? A tough call, but perhaps the best way.

 

[Ado]

I seem to recall back in the 90's multihulls racing from the Solent had problems with continuous spinnaker sheets resulting in at least one capsize. MOCRA I believed banned the practice. I sail a 40' cat, often singlehanded and in the right conditions fly a masthead spinnaker and never use stopper knots on sheets or halyards. I like to think that in a MOB situation I could dump the spinnaker to get back to the crewman in the water.

 

[geem]

I seem to recall back in the 90's multihulls racing from the Solent had problems with continuous spinnaker sheets resulting in at least one capsize. MOCRA I believed banned the practice. I sail a 40' cat, often singlehanded and in the right conditions fly a masthead spinnaker and never use stopper knots on sheets or halyards. I like to think that in a MOB situation I could dump the spinnaker to get back to the crewman in the water.

We never used stopper knot on the spinnaker halyard for the same reasons

 

[Sandy]

I mentioned the Admiralty Stopper Knot in another post :

The Admiralty Stopper Knot is a much nicer knot on the end of a line, more to grab onto on a cold winter's night.

As an ex-mountaineer, my knees and hips are too knackered to continue to climb, I've used the figure of eight for all sorts of things but having been introduced to the Admiralty Stopper Knot would never use a figure of eight again as it is a bit peelywally.

 

[Laser310]

I think for spin halyards and sheets.., it depends...

Boats rigged for racing typically have longer sheets and halyards than cruising boats, so the risk from a stopper knot is reduced.

For example, a halyard will often be long enough at least, that the spinnaker can be doused and extend for its full length horizontally downwind parallel to the water surface with the tack and clew still secured at the boat.

The hassle involved with losing a halyard depends on where you are; if you are doing a day race.., okay.., your racing might suffer, but that's it. If you are crossing the ocean, you really need to guard your halyards. Losing a halyard in the middle of the ocean is potentially a big deal. There is a reasonable chance of losing one due to chafe on an ocean crossing, and losing another because you don't have a stopper is pretty undesirable. Say you have a problem and need to send someone up the mast. There is a reasonable chance that the problem involves one of the other halyards..., so now what?

As long as the halyards are long enough, there are times when a stopper is prudent

 

[Jonny A]

I would rather lose my kite than my mast so no, never.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

I seem to recall back in the 90's multihulls racing from the Solent had problems with continuous spinnaker sheets resulting in at least one capsize. MOCRA I believed banned the practice. I sail a 40' cat, often singlehanded and in the right conditions fly a masthead spinnaker and never use stopper knots on sheets or halyards. I like to think that in a MOB situation I could dump the spinnaker to get back to the crewman in the water.

A firebird cat capsised. Not an unusual event, they are just big beach cats really. I don’t think endless sheets are under a general ban, though we haven’t raced ours yet, and would obviously ensure compliance before doing so.

 

[blush2]

You are assuming that your stopperless sheets and guys will run free.

Probably sod's law applies, but many years ago I was racing on a boat that chose to lose it's keel whilst under spinnaker. It laid on it's side and continued to try to sail. Cowes rescue came out and we managed to retrieve the (new) spinnaker, ropes and all. Apart from no stoppers, no tangles happened either.

 

[geem]

I would rather lose my kite than my mast so no, never.

Why would you lose your mast?