Do you don't you stopper knots

[thinwater]

I appreciate that and perhaps the mistake I make is concentrating of larger yachts where the thought of a continuous sheet or guy on a spinnaker is somewhat alarming or at least to me it is.

A multihull does not run a symmetrical chute and therefore would never have a guy. We have a tack line, rather short and generally muti-purchase, tended from the bow. The other difference is a broad foredeck that makes sail handling different (no cockpit drops--getting a chute connected to a tack line around the outboard cap shrouds is inefficient). Different.

Some big cats use continuous jib sheets. It is more a matter of cockpit layout than size. It depends on where the sheet will run across. I've seen continuous jib sheets on big center cockpit monos (not in the way on the afterdeck).

Continuous sheets are not the right answer for most cruising monos. Not trying to say they are, probably would not be my choice (and the cockpit layout of my tri is similar to a mono).

 

[Jonny A]

Why would you lose your mast?

The risk is always there if I can't let the sheet or guy off.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

The risk is always there if I can't let the sheet or guy off.

That's the last thing on my mind. Your rig should take any load the boat can.

 

[Resolution]

Stoppers or not on kite sheets and halyard? Must depend on whether you are cruising or racing. Cruising , perhaps stoppers could be useful in a short-handed recovery of an unruly kite. But racing, no way ! Having raced several years on very competitive Sigma 33s, we became used to flying kites in extreme conditions. Inevitably some broaches resulted and we all became practiced in recovery as quickly as possible. Letting free either the sheet or the guy was often the quickest way to de-power the sail, leaving recovery by the remaining sheet or guy relatively easy. Actually, thinking back, as we had twinned sheets and guys there was an awful lot of string flying around in the air, and our foredeck heroes were at some risk of being brained by a shackle. And I do recall one expensive day when, having broached and released the pair on one clew the kite flogged around for a few moments and then the shackle opened and dropped my expensive sheet and guy into the briny, never to be seen again!
I was quite impressed with how much strain the mast used to take in these events, some of the broaches were really violent changes of direction.

 

[Daydream believer]

Over the years I have raced my own boats with spinnaker. I have been foredeck crew when racing half tonners, 3/4 tonners for quite a few years
& 45 ft plus as foredeck skipper. These boats have all been raced hard. But surprisingly we have had few really bad broaches, except when flying the blooper in wind that was clearly too heavy for a spinnaker, let alone the additional blooper. I just convinced the skipper I could do it. I could not, but it did not matter, he was paying

The quickest way out of a broach is to release the vang on the boom. People fail to do that & the main just keeps driving as the boom dips in the water. It also avoids undue strain on the boom.

In all the years I never once recall having a situation where the stopper knot caused an issue. I have never needed to cut anything. I normally went round all the sheets, guys etc & checked the set ups prior to each race. It was me up front after all. All the boats had lines that were long enough. On my own boat if it got to the stopper there would be little load left to stop me pulling a bit back to undo it. One does not put the knot at the end but a foot in from the end so one has something to grab if needed.

 

[Resolution]

Absolutely agree the stopper knot should be at least a foot or so from the end.

 

[Laser310]

A multihull does not run a symmetrical chute

I've sailed 1000's of miles, including an atlantic crossing.., on multihulls.., and until about a year and a half ago, I would have said the same thing. Nearly all my multihull experience was on Gunboats and they all run only asymmetrical chutes tacked to the longeron, and sail pretty hot angles down wind.

But, it turns out that symmetrical chutes are terrific on multihulls when the route is deep down wind.

What I have learned is that a symmetrical spinnaker will permit a catamaran to sail pretty much dead down wind short handed in complete safety.

Drop the main entirely. Hoist the chute with both a tack line and a sheet on each corner. One tackline runs to the starboard bow, and the other tackline to the port bow. The sheets run aft in the normal fashion. On the windward side, trim the tackline, and leave the sheet slack. On the other side trim the sheet and leave the tack line slack. One typically sails not actually DDW but about 10deg on one board or the other. To "gybe" all that you have to do is take up the tackline on the old leeward side and ease that sheet.., and on the other side ease the old tack line and trim the sheet. Turn the boat maybe 10-20deg. Because the main is down, there is nothing to do with it.

This rig works really well -

Cats - especially performance cats have a problem in that to go downwind they are supposed to sail at hot angles - say TWA 150-155 - powered up with an A2, at very high speeds. This works great with a full crew and non-scary conditions.

but once you decide to back off - either because you have fewer crew, or because the conditions get a bit much to sail fast - then problems arise. One is that on most cats you can't ease the main very far because the shrouds are so far aft. So you still end up sailing hot angles.., only now you are doing it slowly, and the extra distance from those angles adds up to a long passage.

With the symmetrical, you can have decent speed straight down wind - right at your destination.. I have used this rig offshore on a pretty large cat with one-person watches.

The other great thing is that symmetrical chutes are available at very low cost from places that sell used sails. Nobody wants them...

 

[Chiara’s slave]

We have the rig to pull the tack of our asymmetric to the ‘windward’ ama bow, but would never do it except if sea room was an issue. And then we wouldn’t be flying a kite and doing 12-15 kn. We’d be under jib alone very likely.

 

[jamie N]

My Folkboat has a symmetrical chute, rigged through a deck mounted 'spinnaker chute', where the halyard is also the downhaul from the centre of the spinnaker; exactly the same as it is in 10's of thousands of racing dinghies. If one loses a sheet or guy because there's not a knot on the end of the line, control is lost of the sail and the retrieval options are reduced by ⅓.

 

[Uricanejack]

Common my personal favourite, West Country or Chinese if Asked by MCA. Chain occasionally.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

My Folkboat has a symmetrical chute, rigged through a deck mounted 'spinnaker chute', where the halyard is also the downhaul from the centre of the spinnaker; exactly the same as it is in 10's of thousands of racing dinghies. If one loses a sheet or guy because there's not a knot on the end of the line, control is lost of the sail and the retrieval options are reduced by ⅓.

A number of our local Folkboats do that too. I had a sailcloth launch tube on a Strider cat years back, with the same arrangement. On the right boat, it’s a brilliant kite taming system.

 

[glynd]

And when the knot runs hard up against a block or jammer?

This is why you leave enough for a sheet bend after the stopper

Never touch a stopper on kite bits however…

 

[glynd]

I mentioned the Admiralty Stopper Knot in another post :

As an ex-mountaineer, my knees and hips are too knackered to continue to climb, I've used the figure of eight for all sorts of things but having been introduced to the Admiralty Stopper Knot would never use a figure of eight again as it is a bit peelywally.

totally +1000
It is superior in so many ways, and never comes undone

 

[Poignard]

I have been using it for decades but I never knew it was called the Admiralty Stopper Knot.

I thought it was called a Monkey's Fist but having just checked online it seems I was mistaken. The MF is used on the end of a heaving line

 

[geem]

The risk is always there if I can't let the sheet or guy off.

You have got to be kidding

 

[LadyInBed]

but I still think every sailing boat needs a sharp knife in the cockpit.

I think that you need a sharp knife in your pocket!

 

[thinwater]

... MOCRA I believed banned the practice. I sail a 40' cat, often singlehanded and in the right conditions fly a masthead spinnaker and never use stopper knots on sheets or halyards....

If you have a link to MOCRA rules or safety advice I think we would all love to read them. I could not find a link on the web site.

Personally, I don't generally use stoppers on chute lines, and if the lines are long enough, they don't run out anyway.

 

[john_morris_uk]

Figure of Eight

“You need to know this for your RYA competent crew certificate (and part of L1 Training). Probably one of the most pointless knots you'll learn. Hopeless as a stopper, but the RYA say you should know how to tie it.”
From Essential Knots
“Useless as a stopper?” How come it’s been so useful for me and thousands of other sailors for many years? The Admiralty stopper knot is excellent but it’s not easy to undo if it’s ever been snatched up against something.

 

[Daydream believer]

The only place I use the Admiralty stopper knot is on the end of the control lines for my mainsheet traveller. The lines never reach the ends as the traveller reaches the end first. So it cannot jamb up easily unless the line snatches on something else- such as my foot when moving about. But a large stopper knot is nicer to grip for pulling in when sitting up to windward.
Some of my lines- ie asym halyard ,MOB halyard, topping lift, vang & cunningham have a plastic ball on the end. Makes the end easier to find in the dark when hanging in the coil.
The figure 8 is far easier to release when putting away genoa, barber haulers & spinnaker sheets etc at the end of the day.

One other stopper that I have is a plastic golf ball sewn into the spinnaker pole up haul line. This line doubles as a MOB hoist halyard. I can lower it over the side & using the winch I can hoist someone up over the side. My wife can hoist me up the mast, so she should be able to get me 6ft over the guard rail. The halyard is long enough to reach the water just aft of the cockpit & still be on the winch. However, if someone released it from the spinnaker ring on the mast ( It has a large hook) the person on the winch might accidentally pull it out of reach or it might just slide upwards. To prevent this I have the golf ball on the halyard & the line cannot go out of reach of the person at the mast. Being light the golf ball does not flap against the mast all night like a solid plastic ball might.
It took a while for the other half to find out why she was missing a practice ball but I think I got away with it once explained.
So that is another type of stopper no one has mentioned. ?

 

[Jonny A]

That's the last thing on my mind. Your rig should take any load the boat can.

The peak loads caused by a flogging spinnaker that's even partially powered up can be huge. Good way to find out the weak points in your standing rigging.