Do we like windfarms or not?

[oldgit]

I doubt whether figures are readily obtainable but it would be interesting and illuminating to find out how much diesel all the dozens, maybe hundreds, of Fastcat windfarm support vessels burn every day and they're presence seems to be a permanent and ongoing requirement.

....probably less fuel than it takes to propel a ship carrying coal from Australia or South America to Kingsnorth and a lot less than when that ship sails back unladen to do the trip again ?

 

[sailorman]

....probably less fuel than it takes to propel a ship carrying coal from Australia or South America to Kingsnorth and a lot less than when that ship sails back unladen to do the trip again ?

NOW LOOK, we dont want hard facts OK

 

[oldgit]

NOW LOOK, we dont want hard facts OK

Ooops forgot USA,Russia.South Africa and err...Indonesia apparently
Just waiting for them to blow up the chimney........

 

[Flynnbarr]

Ooops forgot USA,Russia.South Africa and err...Indonesia apparently
Just waiting for them to blow up the chimney........

Noooo.......its when I know when to turn right

 

[DavidofMersea]

The reality is that offshore wind is environmentally expensive to install, very environmentally expensive to maintain and will one day by environmentally expensive to decommision

You maybe right , or maybe not, I don't know.
These sort of things are often quoted by the anti brigade, but who has reliable figures?

 

[Daydream believer]

....probably less fuel than it takes to propel a ship carrying coal from Australia or South America to Kingsnorth and a lot less than when that ship sails back unladen to do the trip again ?

Actually shipping is one of the cheapest forms of transporting goods & the cost per tonne is very low.
Plus of course we can get the coal from Portugal which is closer.
But, if we could remember how to mine it ourselves, we have an abundance here


is it environmentally acceptable to burn modern windmills???

 

[sailorman]

Actually shipping is one of the cheapest forms of transporting goods & the cost per tonne is very low.
Plus of course we can get the coal from Portugal which is closer.
But, if we could remember how to mine it ourselves, we have an abundance here


is it environmentally acceptable to burn modern windmills???

They are programmed to self ignite / destruct

 

[Ceirwan]

The reality is that offshore wind is environmentally expensive to install, very environmentally expensive to maintain and will one day by environmentally expensive to decommision

I doubt whether figures are readily obtainable but it would be interesting and illuminating to find out how much diesel all the dozens, maybe hundreds, of Fastcat windfarm support vessels burn every day and they're presence seems to be a permanent and ongoing requirement. Not to mention the unknown quantity of diesel burnt in the generators necessary on every offshore wind turbine to supply power to its systems when its not generating

Hi Bru,
I'm actually the master off a wind farm support vessel, a 19m southboat so I can answer some of your questions.

The boats do burn a lot of diesel, its something we talk about a lot and shake our heads about, but the engineers do tell us that over the lifetime of the windfarm it is offset.

But if you want figures, on my boat at cruise we burned roughly 190l per hour per side so around 380 lph in total. That's at cruise, daily burn out of Grimsby was around 2000 litres a day, on other pojects with less distance to get there and less running around, its been as low as 500 a day.
We are probably one of the more 'fuel hungry' boats though, I believe the C-Wind boats are quite fuel efficient as are a lot of the prop wind cats. (We are jets)

As for the diesel generators, that part is incorrect, the turbines have diesel generators on whilst under construction so that engineers have power to work, these are removed once the turbines are finished, any power needed by the turbines whilst they are not operating is supplied through the shore cable from the national grid.

As for the bloke before you who said its unsafe and people will be injured, on the whole the industry is pretty safe, obviously its an offshore industry so there is a greater element of risk than working stacking shelves at Tesco, but it's a managed risk like anything else. Its certainly not 'unsafe'.

And also addressed to him, the reason we have them isn't just because people are complaining about the looks, its because they generate a lot more power then shore turbines, they're bigger, have uninterrupted wind and use space that in general no one was using. Whats not to like apart from cost!

http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/
This is an interesting site, it gives a live view of the power drawn by the national grid and where its coming from.
Currently around 10% from wind.

 

[Capt Popeye]

Humm many thanks Ceirwan for this info, gives a somewhat 'hands on' answer to us who can only watch and stare, and of course 'comment.

 

[Bru]

Humm many thanks Ceirwan for this info, gives a somewhat 'hands on' answer to us who can only watch and stare, and of course 'comment.

+1

Tis always useful and most illuminating to hear from people who know

Particularly interested that the oft advanced claim that every windfarm has a weasel generator running half the time is a load of cods.

 

[nigelm]

All interesting stuff ...

Still a pity that on a windless day they can't put the gunfleet farm in reverse and blow us yotties home
?

 

[Stork_III]

+1

Tis always useful and most illuminating to hear from people who know

Particularly interested that the oft advanced claim that every windfarm has a weasel generator running half the time is a load of cods.

A contrary view about diesel gens in offshore wind turbines. Backup generation is required for Insurance and warrantee purposes.

http://www.tridentenergy.co.uk/pres...r-on-auxiliary-power-for-offshore-wind-farms/

 

[FulmarJeddo]

As for the diesel generators, that part is incorrect, the turbines have diesel generators on whilst under construction so that engineers have power to work, these are removed once the turbines are finished, any power needed by the turbines whilst they are not operating is supplied through the shore cable from the national grid.
.

I sailed through the Kentish Flats wind farm the summer before last and heard engines running in several of the turbine towers. The wind farm had been fully operational for at least 5 or 6 years. There was an extension to it last year and a no go area to us for most of the sailing season.

 

[Ceirwan]

A contrary view about diesel gens in offshore wind turbines. Backup generation is required for Insurance and warrantee purposes.

http://www.tridentenergy.co.uk/pres...r-on-auxiliary-power-for-offshore-wind-farms/

Its an interesting article, but they are trying to sell their own product,

--- To be clear, this paragraph is me quoting from the linked article, I do not wholly agree with this assertion.
" Once the wind turbine is installed, further power is needed to provide lighting, heating, clean air systems and to turn over sensitive equipment. Typically, this power is provided by small diesel generators; the London Array, the world’s largest offshore wind farm, had a diesel generator located on each of its 175 turbines. If the connection to the onshore electricity grid is delayed then the diesels may need to provide continuous power for many months."

----

True that the turbines need power, its not typical that its powered by generators, at least not once the turbines have been connected to the grid. IMO They're exaggerating the problem because they want to be able to provide a solution for it.
I can't speak for every wind farm naturally. But for everyone I've worked on, and theres been a few, generators are only up the turbines when they're under construction, and when they're undergoing certain types of maintenance.

For some work to be carried out they have to disconnected from the Substation or Shore and then we usually crane up a generator for them to use whilst work goes on.

Fulmarjeddo:
As above, its quite likely maintenance was ongoing, and sometimes that requires disconnecting from the grid.

 

[FulmarJeddo]

Yes there was work going on on some of the turbines. On a couple there were people on ropes out on the blades. Would they have been cleaning the blades? That's what it looked like.

 

[sailorman]

Hi Bru,
I'm actually the master off a wind farm support vessel, a 19m southboat so I can answer some of your questions.

The boats do burn a lot of diesel, its something we talk about a lot and shake our heads about, but the engineers do tell us that over the lifetime of the windfarm it is offset.

But if you want figures, on my boat at cruise we burned roughly 190l per hour per side so around 380 lph in total. That's at cruise, daily burn out of Grimsby was around 2000 litres a day, on other pojects with less distance to get there and less running around, its been as low as 500 a day.
We are probably one of the more 'fuel hungry' boats though, I believe the C-Wind boats are quite fuel efficient as are a lot of the prop wind cats. (We are jets)

As for the diesel generators, that part is incorrect, the turbines have diesel generators on whilst under construction so that engineers have power to work, these are removed once the turbines are finished, any power needed by the turbines whilst they are not operating is supplied through the shore cable from the national grid.

As for the bloke before you who said its unsafe and people will be injured, on the whole the industry is pretty safe, obviously its an offshore industry so there is a greater element of risk than working stacking shelves at Tesco, but it's a managed risk like anything else. Its certainly not 'unsafe'.

And also addressed to him, the reason we have them isn't just because people are complaining about the looks, its because they generate a lot more power then shore turbines, they're bigger, have uninterrupted wind and use space that in general no one was using. Whats not to like apart from cost!

http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/
This is an interesting site, it gives a live view of the power drawn by the national grid and where its coming from.
Currently around 10% from wind.

Its an interesting article, but they are trying to sell their own product,

" Once the wind turbine is installed, further power is needed to provide lighting, heating, clean air systems and to turn over sensitive equipment. Typically, this power is provided by small diesel generators; the London Array, the world’s largest offshore wind farm, had a diesel generator located on each of its 175 turbines. If the connection to the onshore electricity grid is delayed then the diesels may need to provide continuous power for many months."

True that the turbines need power, its not typical that its powered by generators, at least not once the turbines have been connected to the grid. IMO They're exaggerating the problem because they want to be able to provide a solution for it.
I can't speak for every wind farm naturally. But for everyone I've worked on, and theres been a few, generators are only up the turbines when they're under construction, and when they're undergoing certain types of maintenance.

For some work to be carried out they have to disconnected from the Substation or Shore and then we usually crane up a generator for them to use whilst work goes on.

Fulmarjeddo:
As above, its quite likely maintenance was ongoing, and sometimes that requires disconnecting from the grid.

So No & Yes ????

 

[Hydrozoan]

... If you want to understand more about the true drivers for the price you pay for energy, take a look at the work of Dieter Helm, Professor of Economics at the University of Oxford, and probably the most capable energy economist in the world:

http://www.dieterhelm.co.uk/

+1

I posted a link to his IET lecture here https://tv.theiet.org/?videoid=7379 on The Lounge's GW thread but it didn't get a response. Well worth a view IMHO.

 

[Ceirwan]

So No & Yes ????

No!
I should have made it clearer, (and I'll edit it now) I was quoting from the linked article.
So the second highlighted paragraph is me quoting directly from the website, and I explain underneath what I think.
Essentially that if you read the whole article they're trying to promote their wave generator as an alternative to diesel generators, so it helps if they over sell the issue.
Out of the 6 ish wind farms i've worked on, none of them use diesel generators apart from when in construction or under maintenance.

Yes there was work going on on some of the turbines. On a couple there were people on ropes out on the blades. Would they have been cleaning the blades? That's what it looked like.

Most likely blade inspections, checking for cracks that kind of thing.
Very boring job if you're not hanging off the rope as you have to spend the day hovering in the vicinity incase on of them falls in.

 

[Daydream believer]

Yes there was work going on on some of the turbines. On a couple there were people on ropes out on the blades. Would they have been cleaning the blades? That's what it looked like.

Pikeys nicking the blades to flog as cheap wing masts to Ben Ainsle ??

 

[Daydream believer]

Presumably wind turbines can be subject to freezing so need some form of turbine heater. One would have expected that that can be drawn back from the grid & a generator would be unnecessary