DIY LiFePo4 installation - Don't do what I did (maybe) . . .

[billskip]

Unlike domestic and commercial electricians, there are no compulsory qualifications for marine electricians. There are a couple of short courses run by trade bodies and some "training" by manufacturers that's more product training than anything.

So are you saying anyone without any qualifications can claim to be a marine electrician?

Edit... just a thought is there really a
difference, I woud have thought qualified electrician would be required.

 

[Sea Change]

Has anybody asked their insurance company exactly what 'professional' means?

In the case of getting coverage on a mooring, I was told that it must be laid and maintained by a 'professional installer'. On pressing for more information, this meant somebody with their own insurance cover.

So the discussion shifts to insuring the person doing the installation. It might be worth asking any potential installer whether they have this coverage.

 

[rotrax]

I asked on here about using a modern 'Power Station' made by Bluetti.

Reading this, I am glad I purchased when they were on sale, their entry level 180 model.

Tested it and so far it does exactly what it says on the tin.

45 minutes to full charge from the mains, boiling the 2kw kitchen kettle only drops the capacity a few %. I used it to power a 2kw SDS Hammer drill for making big holes in very hard concrete-my faithful cordless hammer drill would not do- it-again only a 5% drop in capacity after drilling two one inch holes five inches deep. First Mate has run the boat air fryer for twenty minutes, again only a small drop in capacity.

Well pleased, it is portable, very versatile and I believe it will do exactly what I expected of it.

I shall let my insurance company know I use it on the boat. Any issues with that, the forum will be the first to know.

 

[PaulRainbow]

So are you saying anyone without any qualifications can claim to be a marine electrician?

That is correct.

Edit... just a thought is there really a
difference, I woud have thought qualified electrician would be required.

Domestic electricians would have no idea of most marine installations, not even shore power.

 

[rogerthebodger]

I have said this before that a professional is one who simply charges for his services whatever those services are

W have a requirement for a competent person, and I have requited what is a competent is and what qualification and/ training di does a competent person need.

There seems not read answer to that question, but it is a get-out for any insurance company to refute any claim

I built my boat from a bear hull and superstructure including fitting engine, steering and all electrics both 12Vdc and shore power.

I have a degree in mechanical engineering which including electrical engineering as well as a national certificate in mechanical and electrical engineering.

Does that make ne competent or not as I don't and never done any mechanical or electrical work for any payment which makes n a non-professional engineer, yet in the past I was a chartered engineer but no longer as I stopped paying any profisional fees

 

[Sea Change]

There's a grain of truth in this:

An amateur is somebody who does the best job they can, and a professional is someone who does the worst job they can get away with.

No disrespect to the genuinely good professionals out there of course.

 

[lustyd]

There is no requirement for those of us working on secondhand boats to comply with the ISO

But if it ends up with an uninsurable boat then it would become a requirement by proxy. One would assume any "professional" would follow the standards by default as it's easier to do the same thing each time.

Unlike domestic and commercial electricians, there are no compulsory qualifications for marine electricians.

Which sort of leaves us in a situation where "professional electrician" is someone insured to do the work. Effectively taking liability so the boat insurer doesn't have to pay for issues. This would be the case with lithium or lead, so realistically I suspect most of us will carry on as we have been and do some research, install as best we can, and take/ignore the risk over insurance.

Sadly I think many of us would find boating unaffordable if we had to pay professionals for every bit of work, although eventually I'm sure that's where we'll get to

 

[rogerthebodger]

The interesting fact about professional insurance would be the cost of that insurance and would anyone who considered thenselves as a "professional electrician"

When I was a C Eng I worked for a company that had oversite of my work so I did not need any "professional indeminiaty insurance but if I work on my own account I would and it would cost me an arm and a leg.

I very dought that any "professional electrician" as such would pay the preimum forthat type of insurance. One reason I do not do work for other people is the possibility of being held liable for damages due to work I did in a "professional capacity" .

 

[PaulRainbow]

But if it ends up with an uninsurable boat then it would become a requirement by proxy. One would assume any "professional" would follow the standards by default as it's easier to do the same thing each time.

Please do not selectively quote. What i said was "There is no requirement for those of us working on secondhand boats to comply with the ISO. However, in the case of some systems, it makes sense to do so. Although the ISO does not cover Lithium installations and the ABYC standards are for the US, it makes sense to me for UK installers to comply with the ABYC standard as much as possible."

So i agree that "professional" electricians should work to the standards.

Which sort of leaves us in a situation where "professional electrician" is someone insured to do the work. Effectively taking liability so the boat insurer doesn't have to pay for issues. This would be the case with lithium or lead, so realistically I suspect most of us will carry on as we have been and do some research, install as best we can, and take/ignore the risk over insurance.

Sadly I think many of us would find boating unaffordable if we had to pay professionals for every bit of work, although eventually I'm sure that's where we'll get to

There is a welcome update to the ISO in the pipeline, which will include Lithium installations. Hopefully this will make things clearer.

 

[lustyd]

Please do not selectively quote

It was the only relevant text to what I was saying so not sure why that’s an issue. I wasn’t disagreeing, I was expanding on the point.

There is a welcome update to the ISO in the pipeline, which will include Lithium installations. Hopefully this will make things clearer.

Which is a good thing for pro’s but for the rest of us it’s irrelevant if insurers require professional installation. I imagine your current work will be compliant when the standard is updated as the update will be based on best practice. My installation will also probably be standards compliant but if the insurer doesn’t accept that then nothing changes for most of us other than confirmation that the real requirement is professional installation rather than implementation to a standard. If that happens then it’s likely a lot of folk will also realise their DIY lead installs are uninsured too.

 

[billskip]

not even shore power.

I'm not sure about that, I finished during the 17th edition and I know that included ground/earthing for static mobile homes
But don't remember now if it also included
Marina supply.
That said whatever is the latest edition should cover it.

 

[PaulRainbow]

I'm not sure about that, I finished during the 17th edition and I know that included ground/earthing for static mobile homes
But don't remember now if it also included
Marina supply.
That said whatever is the latest edition should cover it.

Boats are not marinas and as such are not covered by any edition as far as i know. Any mentions of galvanic isolation, grounding to water etc ?

 

[PaulRainbow]

It was the only relevant text to what I was saying so not sure why that’s an issue. I wasn’t disagreeing, I was expanding on the point.

Which is a good thing for pro’s but for the rest of us it’s irrelevant if insurers require professional installation. I imagine your current work will be compliant when the standard is updated as the update will be based on best practice. My installation will also probably be standards compliant but if the insurer doesn’t accept that then nothing changes for most of us other than confirmation that the real requirement is professional installation rather than implementation to a standard. If that happens then it’s likely a lot of folk will also realise their DIY lead installs are uninsured too.

Hard to say, but perhaps with a standard in place some insurers will say that if the standards are met it will be OK. Not all insurance companies are giving the same answers as the OPs.

 

[lustyd]

Yes I really hope that will be the case

 

[rogerthebodger]

I don/t know about the UK, but our consumer protection legislation requires any work to be done to the satification of the consumer and to good quality

If not, a complaint can be made and if not resolved a court case can be opened in a special consumer court

 

[simonfraser]

So if one has a professional lithium install which is up to insurance standard and then fit something extra to the setup which burns the boat down one is not insured ?

 

[billskip]

That is correct.

So when I read posts on here and it's suggested , get a qualified electrician...( referring to boat installation) ..
They don't realy exist then?

 

[Neeves]

For most kit today most equipment is sold with sufficient instruction that it can be self installed, a GPS chart plotter, a windlass. Some times the electrical requirements are low, the chart plotter, sometimes high, the windlass. There is normally no reason to employ a professional. I confess to not have bought Victron stuff for over 25 years - but the impression I get is - that its sold such that there are sufficient instructions to self instal.

But we were anchored next to a yacht which the day after we left - burnt down to the water line and sank - with the owner having told us the day we left - that he had a problem with his windlass.

I don't know if the yacht that sank was insured - sight of insurance certificates are seldom asked for when you want to overnight in a marina and are never asked for when you top up with fuel (in the same marina).

People don't think twice when they replace their battery bank - they just do it - using the same cables as were used on the old batteries. Add a shunt, self installed, add a MPPT controller and solar panels - self installed. Add a fuse, self installed.

The difference between what we mostly, all, do - self installed - and replacing LA with Lithium is very vague.

If you were going to replace LA with Lithium but were waiting for the LA to need replacement then you would start to replace or add items to the existing electrics with Lithium/LA compatible components, like a battery charger. You would end up in 12 months time with a LA/Lithium capable system that you could simply modify by 'dropping in' Lithium, sized to fit in the existing space - so bigger capacity.

Its all going to get very messy

You sell your yacht, it is surveyed (and certificated by the surveyor) - but maybe surveyors are upto date with the issues and they ask - who installed the chart plotter, windlass, batteries....

Oddly I never touch the electrics in our car - I once replaced a fuse in our Prado - yachts are different.

Victron et al are going to take a hit if certification (insurance by the 'professional' installer) is demanded - it will double the costs of units. The market for Lithium in yachts will dry up - unless its a new yacht.

Geem I understand is a professional - but he only touches his own yacht. Sea Fever......??, seems pretty professional to me, but he is not certifying my Lithium, only his own - but is Sea fever a 'professional' to an insurer - or to me if a buy Sea Fever's yacht.

It all going to get very messy. Yachts with Lithium will become uninsurable AND unsaleable.

Jonathan

 

[PaulRainbow]

So when I read posts on here and it's suggested , get a qualified electrician...( referring to boat installation) ..
They don't realy exist then?

qualified
adjective

having the standard of skill, knowledge, or ability that is necessary for doing or being something.

 

[dunedin]

So when I read posts on here and it's suggested , get a qualified electrician...( referring to boat installation) ..
They don't realy exist then?

The OP’s post #1 included a statement from the insurers requiring “professionally installed”, not “qualified” installer (presumably as they are aware no definitive qualification exists). Professionally installed could be evidenced by an invoice for the installation - and the installer better have professional liability insurance, as insurers could try to claim on the installer for any losses.