Discovery Again!

[dunedin]

So it looks like the Discovery Brand is finally dead.

Till the next Phoenix ?

 

[Parabolica]

And just to cheer you up - David Tydeman was appointed CEO of Fergusons, the Clyde Shipyard that is having a little difficulty building a couple of ferries in December '21. You just can't make this stuff up!

That low life should have been drowned at birth. I mean it too !

 

[Parabolica]

So it looks like the Discovery Brand is finally dead.

The same in all but name. Buyers beware !!!

As a creditor of the failed Discovery Yachts, the information supplied by the liquidators makes for difficult reading as it smacks of complete fraud in my view.

 

[dk]

The same in all but name. Buyers beware !!!

As a creditor of the failed Discovery Yachts, the information supplied by the liquidators makes for difficult reading as it smacks of complete fraud in my view.

I tend to agree. It is galling to see a company restart with the same directors and personnel when you’re owed a serious chunk of money by the original company. Been there, done that!

 

[ashtead]

I would have thought creditor insurance might be a product of interest in a B2B situation but maybe in marine business it isn’t that common? If you are delivering say beer to a pub it’s fairly standard to buy cover for customer failure to pay I recall.

 

[Tranona]

I would have thought creditor insurance might be a product of interest in a B2B situation but maybe in marine business it isn’t that common? If you are delivering say beer to a pub it’s fairly standard to buy cover for customer failure to pay I recall.

Almost impossible in this business for obvious reasons - they are just poor credit risks and suppliers deal with them because they are often a significant part of heir business - who else can you sell to? What depresses me (from observation) is that competent people have left the industry because it is so unstable meaning the phoenix operations end up being run by those who cause the problem in the first place, as suggested by previous posts.

 

[Parabolica]

I would have thought creditor insurance might be a product of interest in a B2B situation but maybe in marine business it isn’t that common? If you are delivering say beer to a pub it’s fairly standard to buy cover for customer failure to pay I recall.

It’s not possible to get this for most of the UK boat builders. You’d be quite surprised as to which too.

 

[Minerva]

Almost impossible in this business for obvious reasons - they are just poor credit risks and suppliers deal with them because they are often a significant part of heir business - who else can you sell to? What depresses me (from observation) is that competent people have left the industry because it is so unstable meaning the phoenix operations end up being run by those who cause the problem in the first place, as suggested by previous posts.

It’s not possible to get this for most of the UK boat builders. You’d be quite surprised as to which too.

Am I correct in interpreting that as it’s not possible to get insurance on building a new boat, as the risk of the boat builder folding leaving the customers out of pocket is too high?

That’s a damning inditement if true!

 

[Tranona]

Am I correct in interpreting that as it’s not possible to get insurance on building a new boat, as the risk of the boat builder folding leaving the customers out of pocket is too high?

That’s a damning inditement if true!

B2B insurance is for suppliers so they get paid at least a portion of their invoices if the customer goes bust. However it is based on risk and many boatbuilders are high risk as the saga of this outfit shows.

Buyer risk is a very different thing and no, it is not possible to get conventional insurance, although a similar thing may be available through a bank guarantee where the builder's bank guarantees the buyers payments will be refunded if the boat is not delivered. However the same problem arises in that the guarantee is part of the credit facility the builder has with the bank - and builders generally do not have sufficient credit arrangements with banks because of the high risk.

The most common way of buyers managing this risk with custom builders is to use a contract that has a series of payments based on the work completed. The title of the part completed boat passes to the buyer as the payments are made. This way if the yard goes bust the part complete boats do not form part of its assets. This is the type of contract used by Discovery, so the buyers now own part complete boats which may well be completed by the administrator or more likely in this case by the new company under a new contract. Not ideal, but at least the buyer gets his boat, or sells the part complete boat to cut his losses.

There is nothing new about this - buying an expensive boat built to order from a small yard is a risky business as few are well enough capitalised to withstand the ups and downs of the business.

 

[RobbieW]

...This is the type of contract used by Discovery, so the buyers now own part complete boats which may well be completed by the administrator or more likely in this case by the new company under a new contract. Not ideal, but at least the buyer gets his boat, or sells the part complete boat to cut his losses...

A read of post #17 suggests those buyers may not have hulls that meet the expectations of thier investment to date.

 

[Buck Turgidson]

B2B insurance is for suppliers so they get paid at least a portion of their invoices if the customer goes bust. However it is based on risk and many boatbuilders are high risk as the saga of this outfit shows.

Buyer risk is a very different thing and no, it is not possible to get conventional insurance, although a similar thing may be available through a bank guarantee where the builder's bank guarantees the buyers payments will be refunded if the boat is not delivered. However the same problem arises in that the guarantee is part of the credit facility the builder has with the bank - and builders generally do not have sufficient credit arrangements with banks because of the high risk.

The most common way of buyers managing this risk with custom builders is to use a contract that has a series of payments based on the work completed. The title of the part completed boat passes to the buyer as the payments are made. This way if the yard goes bust the part complete boats do not form part of its assets. This is the type of contract used by Discovery, so the buyers now own part complete boats which may well be completed by the administrator or more likely in this case by the new company under a new contract. Not ideal, but at least the buyer gets his boat, or sells the part complete boat to cut his losses.

There is nothing new about this - buying an expensive boat built to order from a small yard is a risky business as few are well enough capitalised to withstand the ups and downs of the business.

There is a part built Oyster 49 that has been on the market for many years. I suspect it was a victim of a previous bankruptcy.

 

[Parabolica]

Am I correct in interpreting that as it’s not possible to get insurance on building a new boat, as the risk of the boat builder folding leaving the customers out of pocket is too high?

That’s a damning inditement if true!

I am referring to credit risk insurance as a supplier to the boat-manufacturers’ themselves.

 

[Parabolica]

There is a part built Oyster 49 that has been on the market for many years. I suspect it was a victim of a previous bankruptcy.

If it was from then, I for one would certainly not want a “Tydeman” Oyster in the slightest as the corners that were cut are all too well known from the ill fated Palona Star or whatever it was called back then. The man has no morals and wouldn’t have given a damn.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

I suppose the purchaser of a bespoke boat could arrange for and finance the builder to take out a bond to cover the cost, you would have to find the right bank / broker / insurance company but It should be possible. Certainly it would add to the buyers cost but it guarantees that if the worst came to the worst he wouldn't lose his total investment.

 

[ashtead]

What is also surprising on this topic is how quiet the British marine federation is on producing solutions to protect the consumer in such scenario .

 

[Tranona]

What is also surprising on this topic is how quiet the British marine federation is on producing solutions to protect the consumer in such scenario .

The only way they could do that is to offer an insurance scheme as many trade associations do, particularly building related - and you are back full circle - the risk is uninsurable.. The BMF has no resources other than its members' subscription fees and doubt members would like to see that used to bail out failures!

 

[Tranona]

There is a part built Oyster 49 that has been on the market for many years. I suspect it was a victim of a previous bankruptcy.

That is owned by a private individual, who happens to be a boat builder who in turn bought it from another individual who had acquired it from Oyster as part complete, all long before the troubles period. Will be driving past where it is moored in about half an hour!

 

[Buck Turgidson]

That is owned by a private individual, who happens to be a boat builder who in turn bought it from another individual who had acquired it from Oyster as part complete, all long before the troubles period. Will be driving past where it is moored in about half an hour!

Good to know. Is he the one trying to sell it or has he bought it to complete? Looks like a mother of a job!

 

[Daydream believer]

If it was from then, I for one would certainly not want a “Tydeman” Oyster in the slightest as the corners that were cut are all too well known from the ill fated Palona Star or whatever it was called back then. The man has no morals and wouldn’t have given a damn.

As I understand it, the problem was a sub standard hull moulding produced by a subcontractor for a particular model of Oyster. That is not necessarily "corner cutting" by the Oyster company, other than possibly a failure to check the subcontractor's work during construction. Perhaps I have this wrong. I am sure others will correct me if I am & there will be no need to resurect old news
Apart from that , are you suggesting that Oyster made many other instances of dubious "cutting of corners". Or are you just letting your dislike of one particular person spill out.
I ask because it puts a whole new slant on the second hand market for Oyster yachts & current owners might have something to say about that

 

[ashtead]

Ideally no broker would be permitted to trade without belonging to a trade insurance scheme,yes members would have to pay to bail out the negligent or corrupt but it might lead to a higher degree of financial competence . I doubt bmf would want to introduce such a scheme but some simple regulation of the marine industry is long overdue in summary .