Dinghy to shore drowning

Talulah said:
I would like to see a breakdown of how people ended up in the water in the first place. (Irrespective of LJ on/off.)
Not always possible to know of course but there could be lessons learnt. Prevention better than cure etc.
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Don't be so sensible.

There is only room on here for emotion - not facts.

I once towed my dingy with grandson and nephew in it wearing only bathing trunks. They started rocking it and generally messing about. Informed Son in Law that once they tip it up he hauls in dinghy while I go round to pick them up.

Events proceded as expected and both learnt that the water was cold and I hope better appreciated the consequences of falling in the water esp if it had been colder! Neither were wearing LJ's

Should have wrapped them in cotton wool and never let them out of the front door - must go off and top myself now with remorse!
 
I've just looked through my photo collections from many years happy sailing on the west coast of Scotland and elsewhere. Can I say I am fully compliant with what this people are being told here is a no-brainer safety decision, every time? Nope. Do I have any right therefore to tell other people how they should behave? Nope. Even apart from my own despicable behaviour, I have pictures of people who I like, respect and enjoy spending time with who are brazenly larking around in dinghys without the relevant safety gear. I won't feel any need now or tomorrow to lecture them on how they should behave.

Of course people make different decisions, or course even then there will be accidents. But the puritanical rantings (both ways) really take the edge off what should probably be a sober moment to reflect on the loss of someone who was no doubt well loved and will no doubt be sorely missed.
 
Not only is the subject of this thread no doubt loved and missed, a look at his qualifications and experience is rather sobering; simply put, one doesn't really get higher than that.

I hope the references to emotion and lecturing people aren't aimed at me, I have merely recounted my own failings and experiences, it's up to others to draw their own conclusions as to safety.

My personal take is that a means of attracting attention is paramount; even a flare relies on someone seeing it during the brief time it's going, and of course wandering around on shore with a pyrotechnic may be awkward.

The waterproof mobile phone seems the best bet to me, not least as most people carry theirs wherever they go.
 
Seajet said:
I hope the references to emotion and lecturing people aren't aimed at me,
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Not aimed at anyone, and certainly not from any virtual pulpit - as I said I have photographic evidence that I'm guilty of every sin described in this thread, and associate with people who are equally naughty.

I just skimmed the thread and between the never do it comments and the think of the children stuff, I thought the saddest part of the thread - the death of what seemed to be a fine seaman - had been lost. A bit like any debate about the failings of the McCanns as parents - everyone has a point to make about safety and looking after kids, but fundamentally a little girl went missing.


Completely separately, I'm not sure if I'd take a mobile as the next best safety item. If the person isn't near enough to see me, they're probably too far away to get to me in time. Personal choice of course, but I've always contemplated flares as the next best safety addition. Never got round to buying them right enough, but they were my personal preference for night time dinghy safety. There was usually a handheld waterproof VHF in my bag anyway so I could contact the boat in the numerous places we seem to visit that have no mobile signal.
 
Sailfree said:
Don't be so sensible.

There is only room on here for emotion - not facts.

I once towed my dingy with grandson and nephew in it wearing only bathing trunks. They started rocking it and generally messing about. Informed Son in Law that once they tip it up he hauls in dinghy while I go round to pick them up.

Events proceded as expected and both learnt that the water was cold and I hope better appreciated the consequences of falling in the water esp if it had been colder! Neither were wearing LJ's

Should have wrapped them in cotton wool and never let them out of the front door - must go off and top myself now with remorse!
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Ha ha ha!!!
 
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andymcp said:
Not aimed at anyone, and certainly not from any virtual pulpit - as I said I have photographic evidence that I'm guilty of every sin described in this thread, and associate with people who are equally naughty.

I just skimmed the thread and between the never do it comments and the think of the children stuff, I thought the saddest part of the thread - the death of what seemed to be a fine seaman - had been lost. A bit like any debate about the failings of the McCanns as parents - everyone has a point to make about safety and looking after kids, but fundamentally a little girl went missing.


Completely separately, I'm not sure if I'd take a mobile as the next best safety item. If the person isn't near enough to see me, they're probably too far away to get to me in time. Personal choice of course, but I've always contemplated flares as the next best safety addition. Never got round to buying them right enough, but they were my personal preference for night time dinghy safety. There was usually a handheld waterproof VHF in my bag anyway so I could contact the boat in the numerous places we seem to visit that have no mobile signal.
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Very true, and a good point about mobile signal reception, a waterproof hand held VHF is maybe a better bet, or in a perfect world both that and a waterproof mobile !

I think I was tending to subconsciously bin the idea of VHF handhelds, simply because my Silva S12 is so rubbish, really must get a decent one.

As for flares, military jets have a PSP - Personal survival Pack - with the ejection seat, this usually includes a 6 shot miniflare pack, and a couple of hand flares about 1,1/2" dia & 6" long; one end is a day red smoke, the other end is a night red flare.

These have always seemed ideal for dinghy trips to me, but I've only seen them in a chandlery once.

I imagine due to size the duration is short, but these things would just about fit in a pocket, if one doesn't mind such things next to the family jewels ! :eek:
However a flare pretty much relies on someone happening to be looking in the right direction when it's let off, so I think a radio or phone stands more chance of a happy ending.

I hope this discussion of ways to avoid this awful loss happening again is a way of showing respect to the lost sailor, I'd think he and his family would wish this talk to happen; I for one am very aware of the heartbreak this tragedy must be causing and can only extend my sympathy
 
IMHO

This thread has degenerated to a similar level as a recent post about commands for tacking.

I would suggest a poll but it would not change anyone's opinions...

I think 99.999% of posters will take there life-jackets off at some point from leaving the shore to returning to the shore, even if its to put a jumper on.

The question on when a life jacket is to be worn, if/ when it could / should be a buoyancy aid.

How much you expose your children to risk/ hazard (or what ever you want to call it.

There are 1000's of scenarios and combinations.

Do we really want a law where you have to wear them in a similar way to the Irish is what we should ask ourselves.

Let face it the law makers can really only be black and white..

On deck/ All times/ Age limit or not/ lifejacket/ buoyancy aid even that is to complicated for them to get right more than 60% of the time.

So I think a no vote is sensible regardless of how we each perceive the hazards and and associated risk...

As for all the emotional rubbish about children, it does not help to win me over. If any of us "non believers" thought there was a significant risk life jackets would be on...

It depends how you want your child to live following your rules blindly or thinking for themselves...
 
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I think you are totally missing the point.

This thread was about dinghy to shore drowning. Wearing a lifejacket makes this less ikely to happen, end of. This is not a fact that any rational person can deny.

If you prefer to take an increased risk that is your perogative. If you prefer to make your children or others in your charge take an increased risk that is IMO simply irresponsible.

If people continue to drown because they are not wearing lifejackets voluntarity then the way our society is at the moment it is quite likely - though not inevitable - that the wearing of lifejackets will be made compulsory at some point. Laws are made in parliament, not on this forum, and are not generally subject to a referendum. If it was subject to a referendum then it is likely that the 'general public' - after reading about it in their red tops - would be overwhelmingly in favour of such legislation.

No amount of posturing or huffing and puffing will change these simple facts.

- W
 
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webcraft said:
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This thread was about dinghy to shore drowning. Wearing a lifejacket makes this less ikely to happen, end of. This is not a fact that any rational person can deny.
- W
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Well, being Devils Advocate this is not necessarily the case. The facts whilst appearing to be obvious may not necessarily be so.
i.e. back to the arguments about people taking more risk because they feel safer.
I suppose I'm not a rational person now.
 
(this is replying to webcraft, I forgot to quote)

I'm not sure that's the case, I'd respectfully suggest.

This was about a death at night during a shore to boat trip in the cold. Lifejacket or not, it could as easily be hypothermia as drowning. And I think the thread reflected this, covering VHFs, mobiles, flares etc as perhaps more important in such cases in the dark. Put another way, of all the safety equipment I'd want to make sure I had to hand, the LJ might not be top of my list.

You're correct of course that everyone can make their own minds up. But it's patently not the case that lots of people wear a LJ for every transfer, and I would seriously question whether it's appropriate to call them irresponsible by default. Even your set of pictures from the recent CC2012 (nice photos btw) include a dinghy of people with only 1 LJ in evidence and someone sans LJ having a drink at the same time. I wouldn't have felt the need to brand him irresponsible (partly as I've never met him and partly because I've rowed the same transfer without LJ in similarly balmy conditions).

My $0.02, I understand your view but I think your assessment of others is harsh.
 
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Having been on the Deben a couple of years back when two bodies were recovered (one of them a poster here) who failed to make it from the tender to the mother yacht in the dark, I wouldn't dream of getting into the tender without an LJ. But that's my call. You make your own decisions in life.
 
andymcp said:
Lifejacket or not, it could as easily be hypothermia as drowning.
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True - but an lj is likely to keep you alive for a little longer, with the possibility - however slim - that you will be found and rescued during that window of opportunity.

(Unless you want to use the 'fisherman's argument' that wearing a lifejacket is merely prolonging the inevitable . . . and that can never be proved)

Fair point re. the Chents - ParaHandy and Claymore are not wearing lifejackets in the picture you refer to, but neither are they on here arguing furiously that what they are doing is eminently sensible ;)

- W
 
webcraft said:
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I think you are totally missing the point.

This thread was about dinghy to shore drowning. Wearing a lifejacket makes this less ikely to happen, end of. This is not a fact that any rational person can deny.

If you prefer to take an increased risk that is your perogative. If you prefer to make your children or others in your charge take an increased risk that is IMO simply irresponsible.

If people continue to drown because they are not wearing lifejackets voluntarity then the way our society is at the moment it is quite likely - though not inevitable - that the wearing of lifejackets will be made compulsory at some point. Laws are made in parliament, not on this forum, and are not generally subject to a referendum. If it was subject to a referendum then it is likely that the 'general public' - after reading about it in their red tops - would be overwhelmingly in favour of such legislation.

No amount of posturing or huffing and puffing will change these simple facts.

- W
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The problem with this sort of argument is it has no end
Wearing a LJ adds to safety in the dingy, but so does having a survival suit, epirb,VHF ( make that 2 for backup) , fire extinguisher, fire blanket, comprehensive first aid kit etc etc.
People don't carry all this equipment, even though few would argue that the all the above gear would meet the same criterion in your argument and add to our safety in the tender. Are we irresponsible for not having this equipment?
Unfortunatly the logical end to the argument is why get in the tender at all, no matter how benign the conditions, why expose your family to the risks for a few hours pleasure.
We all end "safe" sitting in front of the TV at home and die at 50 from a heart attack caused by lack of exercise.
Sensible people make a decision based on the conditions, our own ability etc what safety equipment should be carried and also if its safe to make the trip in the tender at all. in the end we all accept a life lived has some risks.
 
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So if they're not 'on here arguing furiously' they're irrelevant ?!

I recently read ' High Endeavours ', the excellent biography of Miles & Beryl Smeeton, of ' Once is Enough ' fame; their motto was never to ask help from anyone in what would nowadays be called the extreme ventures they undertook.

While lesser mortals like me probably would call for help by any means available, it's a point worth considering; why ask someone else to risk their lives, or even give up their pay for a day ?!
 
On a slightly separate tack, if you want to keep your kids safe in tender teach them to swim really well. I have a few frends that grew up in Australia and their swimming ability is simply amazing, heavy surf, long distances, no problem. They are safer, in many circumstances, in the water without a LJ than I would be with one and I am a good swimmer.
Also learn how to rescue someone who is panicking in the water and know how to resuscitate.
 
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noelex said:
On a slightly separate tack, if you want to keep your kids safe in tender teach them to swim really well. I have a few frends that grew up in Australia and their swimming ability is simply amazing, heavy surf, long distances, no problem. They are safer, in many circumstances, in the water without a LJ than I would be with one and I am a good swimmer.
Also learn how to rescue someone who is panicking in the water and know how to resuscitate.
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Good call.

I was once at Towan beach, between Falmouth & Portscatho, swimming & larking around in moderate surf with my then fiancee and her family, with a tractor inner tube as a float.

A chap started calling " Over here, over here ! " but we didn't catch on immediately he was actually calling ' help my mate ! '

Said chum was a long way out beyond the surf, and unconscious; fiancee and her Dad, both strong swimmers, went off like torpedos leaving me to drag the float through the surf, I think adrenalin was the only way I got through.

They saved the bloke and held him afloat, then we all floated back on the inner tube; I have always thought that the waves washing Fiona's top down was the main reason he perked up to consciousness ! :)
 
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