diesel

[MainlySteam]

Re: PPM

Nigel, not sure if you realised but I am in New Zealand - as I say the sulphur in the best diesel (until very recently, is now being brought down) averages 2,350 ppm here. Also, until recently the predominant transport use has been marine and trucks, but more light vehicles now, but still very few diesel cars.

I don't know why, but bugs do not seem to be an issue out here. Many people do put additives in their fuel, but there again many don't. I have seen untreated diesel drained out of boat tanks here that has sat for 3 or 4 years and has not been more than light tea coloured and no significant sediment or agglomerations.

In my own case the fuel tank is in the keel so does not suffer the wide temperature excursions which suck moist air back in through the vent.

It seems bugs are a worry over there but I do not know why the difference here, especially with the high sulphur?

Regards

John

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[Guest]

Re: PPM

I guessed from previous that you were out and about !! not in UK

The problem is the bugs thing is hyped up by the fact that some do get a problem of blocked filters etc. But the MAJORITY don't. I agree that it is not a comforting thought to consider an engine failing at a critical moment for it.

I have yet to see evidence that the problem is as wide-spread as it seems to appear from 'press' / forum postings .... I suspect - and please this is my own opinion and not 'fact' ... that many repeat what they 'learn / hear' about it and the 'legend' grows.

I test gasoil regularly and we find moderate levels in nearly all samples, but these are N.European and I cannot speak for others, except that I was a OIl Company Superintendent at one time and I travelled all over and saw it wherever I went.

Good husbandry can keep it under control with sparing use of biocide once in a blue moon ..... the sort of frequent use I see sometimes advocated on the forums is way out of my reckoning .....

Really I cannot comment direct on th NZ 'bugs' unless I was to test and see what type they are ..... SRB or not ....


<hr width=100% size=1>Nigel ...
Bilge Keelers get up further ! I came - cos they said was FREE Guinness !
/forums/images/icons/cool.gif

 

[BrendanS]

Re: PPM

The only time I've seen frequent dosing mentioned in relation to bugs, is with Soltron, which isn't a biocide so isn't going to cause biocide resistance.

If the bug hits, it can be instant and devastating, as with two of the forum posters Duncan and tcm, despite no prior evidence of problems

<hr width=100% size=1> I asked an economist for her phone number....and she gave me an estimate

 

[Gunfleet]

Re: PPM

Nigel, does your reply imply that those of use who use very little fuel (15 gal p.a. max for me) would be better off using forecourt supplies? I mean, I'm not saving a lot p.a. by using red!

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[brianhumber]

Re: Owning a Petro Lab etc.

Hi Nigel- happy new year
although my career has been more on the oily 'spanners' side than a 'tank dipper' I totally agree with all your comments. People have probably tightened up now but the only cargo I saw rejected was by the RAF - understandably they did not want their gas turgines carboned up with bug sludge.

Brian

ps guess you are gearing up for the Orthodox Christmas now, my wife has gone back East for a big family knees up but she did assist in cleaning Ronhildas galley over the Western Christmas

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[DepSol]

Re: A question

I know of most small diesel boats especially fishing ones and quite a few sea fisheries protection vessels that have this problem constantly because of the design. Luckily my boat has a seperator from the engine bay to the fuel tank and does not suffer from this. Most boats under 35ft have the tanks close to the engine especially Motor boats.

I understand that you have a wealth of experience and knowledge but I have come across too many people that have had trouble from contamination to say that it is not common. It is very common and not well reported as the understanding of it by most boat owners is small. It is very easy to quote husbandry on your fuel but not everyone has the time or inclination to go prodding tubes or drilling holes in tanks which are very hard to get at any way.

It is much easier for them to dose it with a 'preventative' item as prevention is better than a cure.

My offer to you still stands if you wish to test Soltron in your lab just so that you can understand what I am saying rather than taking the old method of sticking your head in the sand and quoting 'In my experience'. Life is about new methods and I think you should adopt an open approach to new technology when it is presented rather than 'I have been in the industry x amount of years and have never.......etc etc'.

You have a wealth of knowledge and a facility to back that up so please listen to what people are saying about bugs as it is not from scaremongery that the word gets round its from boaters warning other boaters when it happens to them and how they have adopted a method to prevent it from happening again.

Happy New Year

<hr width=100% size=1>Dom

<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.soltron.co.uk>the website</A>

 

[Guest]

Jan 7 ....

Funny enough - most here tend not to celebrate the 7th as they used to. We have a big do for 25th in line with West and then another for the New Year. For me - I get a bit tired !! My B/day is Jan 2 ...... so by the 7th I am just recovering !!!!

Cheers
Happy New Year


<hr width=100% size=1>Nigel ...
Bilge Keelers get up further ! I came - cos they said was FREE Guinness !
/forums/images/icons/cool.gif

 

[Guest]

Re: PPM

Depends on the engine ..... if its a modern light high power diesel engine - then you could benefit by using a forecourt diesel. BUt for the average martine diesel - red is best as it doesn't have the lubricity problem that City has.

OK - let me explain ..... with reduction to Ultra Low Suplhur levels you have a DRY diesel ..... means lubrication suffers and it has to have Lubricity Additive put in. This increases the acidity of the fuel.

So you have a good lubricating diesel, but you have higher acidity ---- a bit of a trade off ..... of course no-one talks about this......

Red is sufficiently lubricating to not need additive and is not so acid ..... but of course you have the higher level of suplhur.

Before anyone starts writing to their MP .... the levels we are talking are low and not such to cause undue concern. I only mention them to illustrate that the question is not easy to answer.

IMHO - if you have a late model diesel that is high performing it may be OK to run City ..... but please ask your Engine Manufacturer .........

ME ? I am very happy with Red ....... !!


<hr width=100% size=1>Nigel ...
Bilge Keelers get up further ! I came - cos they said was FREE Guinness !
/forums/images/icons/cool.gif

 

[Guest]

Re: PPM

I have no opposition to use of Biocide........ I just don't use it myself..... except when treating shipments !! Bit out of this forum's level.

As to Soltron ..... if it is not a Biocide - please explain how it works ? Bugs - are a Micro-biological organism which require a BIOlogical suiCIDE attack.

Question ..... to others .... Having a chemical in any form distributing bugs so that they can be burned in the engine along with the carrier fuel / chemical ... what effect has this ? I don't ask this as a stupid ANTI question ... but would like to know more of this 'retail' answer to the problem.

I am sure that if I suffered a stoppage - I would review my situation !!!


<hr width=100% size=1>Nigel ...
Bilge Keelers get up further ! I came - cos they said was FREE Guinness !
/forums/images/icons/cool.gif

 

[Guest]

I do not knock it ...

Read carefully ....

If you wish to send the sample to my lab ..... then check out my web-site :

www.qqbaltic.com

That will give you the details to send it to ..... at your cost please .... and also call first before dispatch so that I do not have Customs / Import problems.

BUT - note that a) I do not endorse commercial products, b) I do not instruct others to not use it - I say that I do not use it, c) I seem to be told by a few lately that I have said something that is not strictly true .... etc. etc.

Prevention ? How do you prevent bugs entering the system ? Not possible. You can help to prevent bugs from blocking the system .... a bit different.

Finally - I READ POSTS .... I do not reply lightly without thought ... ok sometimes I might have a few beers before typing .... I apologize for that, but gist is straight.

For others - If you are a user and believe that it is worth it ..... stick with it. If you are not a user and think of starting to use it - don't let me stop you.

BUT regardless of all measures taken - husbandry is a worthwhile and rewarding effort. Some do not have deep pockets to keep forking out on chemical; solutions .... believe me I deal in thousands of litres of additives all the time ..... not a few bottles here and there and I do not quote them on this forum........

(My last sale was 17 tons ....... yes tons ........ )

Happy New Year


<hr width=100% size=1>Nigel ...
Bilge Keelers get up further ! I came - cos they said was FREE Guinness !
/forums/images/icons/cool.gif

 

[Gunfleet]

Re: PPM

Thanks for that. And while I have your attention what do you think of using one of these modern high speed Racor filters as you are refuelling? Like a small bocket with a filter in it. There's one at http://www.asap-supplies.com/store_images/301018.jpg Do you think it would be worthwhile? Why ask? you're probably wondering, but every single piece of kit I take onto my 26ft boat has to pay its way, space-wise.
John

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[Heckler]

to put it all in perspective

angola, mid 70s, civil war just finished, building a new oil field base on the banks of the mouth of the river river congo (zaire).
build jetty, on jetty put 4" pipe with std camlock connectors, said pipe goes to 500 gall diesel tank that we have salvaged from the " boat yard" that used to be there before the civil war. jetty to be used for berthing louisianan/gulf of mexico supply boats 150 footish with twin 16 cylinder cat main engines, water tanks, cement tanks and diesel tanks. cleaned the diesel tank out with a hi pressure hose using river water, allow to dry in midday sun.
take diesel off supply boats, now bear in mind this has come from a cracker in luanda refinery that has been cobbled back together after the civil war. the method of transferring diesel from boat is thru common pump and 4" hose that is used to transfer drill water (river congo water) or diesel to drill rig, if water has been transferred just previously " i'll just pop a bit of diesel thru first, put the end in the bush" then couple up to pipe going to our tank.
let stand a couple of hrs and then the boys fill our front end loaders, our generators our landies, toyotas and chevvy diesels.
occasionally the first engineer on the boat would get it wrong and we would end up with water instead of diesel or a few galls of water would get in our tank.
just used to open the drain on the tank and let the water go back to the congo.
in all the fifteen + yrs i was in charge of maintenance there I never encountered the bug, i never changed an injector pump but i changed some detroit diesel injectors, ( these were older than me when i arrived there and they lasted 10 yrs)
i had several times to change fuel filters because of water in them but i repeat no bug. we changed oil, oil, air and fuel filters evey month, if we found water in fuel tanks of engines we dropped the tank.

now what does this tell us:

perfect medium for growth, ie hi sulphur, loads of moisture and water in fuel, plenty of heat but proper house keeping meant no probs

i sometimes despair when i read the forum, people seem to twist themselves into a frenzy worrying about the urban (boating) myths, all that is needed is a modicom of common sense, look after the fuel system in a sensible manner, make it possible to drain the bottom of the tank EASILY, check the drains in the water separators every week, be sensible and you wont need to put hi priced jollop in your tanks
stu


<hr width=100% size=1>http://www.beneteau-owners-association.org.uk

 

[Guest]

Re: to put it all in perspective

Tidewater Marine ??

Anyway ...... Cabinda, Luanda, .......... yep - memories .... but I never worked on TM boats ..... I used to visit as a Oil Co. Super and also as Surveyor.

There is a place for Biocide .... no doubt. BUt the hype that sells it is above and beyond. I have sympathy with those that have suffered from bugs .... I have sympathy for those that are worried about them.

I worry more about them reading the forum, than when I run the tests on the shore tanks etc. before loading ships ..... and also more than when I'm on my boat !!!

OK - now its own-up time ...... I advise on good husbandry, but must admit that I do not have any filter or sparator on my Perkins 4-99 in my boat. The tank is a truck tank of 70 litres with standard truck pick-up .... that is with open end of pick up facing UP .... I have never found any significant amount of gunge in my tank after 6 years of literally just filling and using ...... and many know that my boat stands for considerable periods ..... for me I will probably come a cropper some time .... but until then my lift pump mashes up anything that hits it so far !!!! before it gets to injection pump.

Now that I've written this - that's my lot next time on the boat !!!!


<hr width=100% size=1>Nigel ...
Bilge Keelers get up further ! I came - cos they said was FREE Guinness !
/forums/images/icons/cool.gif

 

[DepSol]

Re: PPM

Its an enzyme. To save me ranting go to this web site.

<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.soltron.co.uk>http://www.soltron.co.uk</A>

It is not so much killling them it is making sure that they are removed at the filtration stage without blocking filters.

<hr width=100% size=1>Dom

<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.soltron.co.uk>the website</A>

 

[BrendanS]

Re: PPM

Nigel,

I've posted many times on this subject, A biocide is similar to an antibiotic. An antibiotic kills the bacteria by one of several routes, usually by disrupting cell membrane or one of its transport mechanisms. These cause the bacterial cell to leak or something similar, bit like stabbing or shooting someone. Hence they die

It's an extremely complex subject, but something in which I can claim experience similar to your own, as I was a biological scientist..did PhD's and all that stuff before I learnt it didn't pay

What biocides do not do is break down the gloopy gell that the bacterial cells exude to stick them all together, and it is this which blocks fuel filters.

I've done a great deal of reseach on Soltron, and while I don't have access to a lab and test conditions can make some basic assumptions on the way it works.

It is not a very efficient biocide (ie killing the bacterial) That however is irrelevant. The bacterial cells don't block fuel filters, they are far too small. Bacterial filters used in labs to capture bacteria are measured in micrometres, and no fuel filter goes down to that level.

What Soltron appears to do is to use an enyzme and other components to break down the sticky gloop around the bacterial cells. Once broken down, the minute cells and the now broken down gloop are free to pass through the fuel filters as tiny particles that will have no effect on either fuel filters nor engines.

From a scientists point of view, a quite efficient answer to the problem. as biocides will at some point cause resistance to biocides, in the same way as antibiotics do when not used correctly. An enzyme aimed at breaking down the gloop will probably have resistant strains at some point, but it will take far, far longer. All basic microbiology in my opinion.

<hr width=100% size=1> I asked an economist for her phone number....and she gave me an estimate

 

[Guest]

Thanks for the info ...

Bit better than trying to shoot at me like some do !!

The only additives that are used trader wise are the biocides as they want to kill it off. They can accept the drop-out as most storage tanks carry the fuel for a number of days before shipment. Tank husbandry is a routine as most in oil industry know and regular dig-outs occur.

I agree with you about the blockages as a lot on the firum equate filters blocking with the live item .... as I and many have said - it is actually the dead gunge that does it.

As a Petro lab - it is not really the action of the additive that we look for - it is the result and side-effects on the fuel. For example - Lubricity additive ..... increases lubricant quality of fuel, but increases acidity etc.

I assume that Soltron is not the only additive that works that way ..... I shall be looking at my eastern and western suppliers for their comments and alternatives - just out of pure curiosity !

I see Depsol is waiting under your post to probably have another go at me ...... so lets have a gander !!



<hr width=100% size=1>Nigel ...
Bilge Keelers get up further ! I came - cos they said was FREE Guinness !
/forums/images/icons/cool.gif

 

[pugwash]

What about petrol ?

All these stories of dinosaurs making jam in my diesel tanks are giving me the willies. But what about petrol? Is my lawn-mower safe? What if I leave my car parked for the weekend, will the carb be blocked by creepie crawlies? And if not in petrol, why not?

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[DepSol]

Re: Thanks for the info ...

I am not here to have a go at you Nigel and I appreciate your understanding of what you have done and do and the information given to the people on this forum however, you must not assume that what you have experienced with big oil companies is the same for 99.9% of the boaters on here.

How many boaters have easy access to the fuel tanks and would be able to make something to drain off sludge and excess water from the main tank? How many boaters would spend hours undoing nuts and bolts to gain access to their tanks to be able to check it, drain it and then put it all back together. Lets say it takes two hours to do this and the average bloke gets paid what £15 per hour so that is £30 of working time spent when you can buy a bottle of Soltron (2500 litres worth of treatment) when you refuel and spend 10 seconds to prevent that problem occuring for the same cost whether it be in time or money doesnt matter as to most people time is money. Or think of it as another two hours boating that day.

It is not fair to compare the oil industry way of husbandry to boating. If you want to talk Oil Industry thats fine as we deal with fuel companies and also companies that are specific for removing sludge but on this forum we are talking about boats and the reality of boating ie spend as much time doing our hobby as possible and reduce the amount of down time and cost as possible to increase the boating time. Lets face it we dont get enough good days out there so lets make every moment at the boat worth while.

Ok back to th oil industry thing whilst we are talking about it. You talk about the amount of fuel that is diposed of because of sudge and bacterial growth, just imagine he cost saving if it never happened. No cleaning of tanks no loss of fuel in that process and no costly expense of paying some one to do it. I have just reviewed the accounts on a sludge removal company and the profits the are making because of the charges is astranomical.

As for lubricity, thats not effected as treatment s 1:5000 and there is no acid build up. Yes there are other products on the market that do similar things like Soltron but no other is an enzyme based product with a complex string of enzymes that are designed to condition the fuel in the same way.

Lets compare like for like in the future when it comes to resolving fuel problems in boats. As I have said before the information you give is sound and of good knowledge however, you must se that the boater has a very different agenda when it comes to storage than the oil companies

I am not having a go its just when you say I am Nigel Luther and I own a Petrochem Lab people sit up and take notice as they dont know you from Adam but they see you know what you are talking about and take your advice as proper information. They do need to know in more detail how this advice can be implemented to the situation they are in rather than the oil company.

Nigel, if my previous post came across to harsh then I apologise but its seems to have made you pay more attention to the subject which is a good thing.

By the way we dont just sell it in bottles, Soltron Solpower ltd sell it in huge quantities 100s of 1000s of litres go out to Europe every month and if you dig deep enough you will find that you are probably dealing with some of the companies that use it.

<hr width=100% size=1>Dom

<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.soltron.co.uk>the website</A>

 

[Heckler]

Re: to put it all in perspective

Nig
i think it was tide water marine, then german outfit bought em all and then inchcape to become OIL, ocean inchcape limited.
we were on the south side across the river from cabinda in soyo,
memories, putting the base in, hardly any food, no beer! then the first boat in from louisiana the W P Andrews, welsh skipper from cardiff, mohammed chief engineer, used to drink more than me but come ramadan would give up smoking and drinking for the month, "just to give a bit back to my faith"
american bacon, becks beer fro some reason, more food and beer? sure help your self, first lessons on twin engine handling, one foreward one astern, use the prop walk to walk the whole thing sideways onto our jetty. first sight of a 16 cylinder v cat , big turbo, full throttle and the site of gallons of fuel turned to black smoke as the engines scrabbled to get the revs up. The W G Gander another one came in next, powerful brute this EMD? (detroit diesels) slow revving, replaceable power packs (cylinder, piston all in a tin box)
good old days, getting old gennies running by flashing the exitation circuits, putting a car battery to it and an old radio volume control to manually feed volts to it. watching the big old fashioned video cassettes from the states in an old caravan with the boys from the local village peerong in at this white mans magic, adjusting the rheostat as the air con kicked in and took too much amperage and of course when the supply boats were there going to pointe noir for unlimited beer.
aaah
stu



<hr width=100% size=1>http://www.beneteau-owners-association.org.uk

 

[Guest]

UMM ....

Maybe we are getting at each other too hard.

But .... I have not quoted or said about amount of fuel disposed of ?? In fact the cleaners we use are designed to give 97% recovery of petroleum product from residues etc. It is the highest recovery of ALL available products. It is also saleable with the cleaning agent IN ... as in past most cleaners had to be centrigued out - similar to mechanical methods of cleaning.

I don't knock additive use ... there is good call for it, but I consider it as an axtra to good practice.

My quotation of husbnadry - was originally based on boat tanks .... later I qualified with tank terminals to illustrate that even major's have to do it .....

My suppliers do not use Soltron - nor do any of my clients, as we deal with only certain additive suppliers recognised in the Trader market ... I will not quote names, as I feel this forum is not the place for commercial discussion. BUT in saying that - I do not pass any judgement or recc'd for / against it ...... it is just they don't use it.

OK onto mechanism ..... many additives are better and more wide effective based on such as Amines and Enzymes. But they have a serious drawback commercially - price.

I can supply a marvelous Mercaptan Sulphur reducer that does not create a corrosive residue. But its price is 10 times higher than the traditional Caustic methods.
I can supply an Octane Booster that has no light sensitive drop-out factors etc. -- but it is 12x more expenisve.

I give my opinionbased on boating experience since I was a very small chold and also working around boat yards / surveying etc. as well as my 'career' of Petrochemicals / and ex Ships officer. Some will agree - some will disagree. I don't mind - that is the way of the world.

If you think that there is a commercial advantage for me .... then you are welcome to contact me direct......


<hr width=100% size=1>Nigel ...
Bilge Keelers get up further ! I came - cos they said was FREE Guinness !
/forums/images/icons/cool.gif