Diesel Hybrid yacht ... brilliant explanation.

[dunedin]

I have huge respect for this guy in terms of his ambition, his woodworking and his ability to engage his audience. Great stuff and I look forward to seeing this great vessel back afloat.

But he has perhaps over sold slightly his tech. And in post #56 above (thanks XDC) he is quoted as saying “Batteries -I know very little about batteries and probably shouldn’t have even mentioned them in this video. There will be a lot more research done before any decisions are made. “

This is quite telling, as with battery and hybrid propulsion, the batteries are usually at the core of the system. Motors are easy, it is the battery technology, and the charging, power management systems etc that surround them, that are the tricky and expensive bit. Sounds like he hasn’t quite got there yet, whereas I might have started there.

However, if Hybrid Marine are involved they have some very useful experience. And if Hybrid Marine reckon it is a hybrid drive system, then I will go with their assessment rather than forum assessment. They did a great presentation to the British Marine web forum, including talking about the differences between serial and parallel hybrids. Both valid (if still currently very expensive) solutions.

 

[Hacker]

If you watch the video carefully his main argument (to me at least) is to have a solution that enables multiple levels of redundancy. The solution may not be the most efficient in any one domain but it covers the redundancy issue. He also at the end says that he hasn’t decided on the battery technology, so let’s wait until he does before annihilation!

 

[Kelpie]

I wouldn't be too quick to assume that a big lithium battery bank and electric motor necessarily has a much larger carbon/environmental footprint to manufacture than a small diesel and bank of lead-acid batteries.
There are pros and cons, but it's similar to the argument people sometimes make against wind farms "oh they never pay back the carbon used to produce them"- despite clear evidence that the carbon-neutral payback time is actually around six months for a lot projects. Likewise with cars, people use embodied energy arguments to keep an old banger going, when the numbers don't support that unless you barely use the thing.

Lithium has some disadvantages- some questionable raw materials mining is going on. The batteries don't tend to be recycled as much as they should. But it has an awful lot of advantages too. The batteries last far longer than lead-acid, which is a huge win (some LiFePO4 systems are now projecting a lifespan of 20 years); they save energy due to higher charging efficiency; they weigh less so cost less to transport and have less impact on the vehicle they are installed in; the chemicals involved are environmentally much less toxic than lead; 'end of life' vehicle batteries are being reused as domestic power storage, which is a very simple way of extending their lives.

 

[Ravi]

1) It doesn't make economic sense. It will be hugely expensive.

Something being expensive does not mean that it does not make economic sense. Having a private helicopter for the occasional weekend trip does not make 'economic sense' but it would be nice to have one - if you can afford it!

It doesn't make engineering sense. A heavy boat like that will get a very small range from battery power.

It does make engineering sense if it is designed to meet the specified requirements. His stated requirement is to use the engine minimally. I fully understand that. In many years and thousands of miles of cruising, nearly all my engine use was for anchoring or occasional entry into harbours. Very often I would drop the anchor and then put the engine on just to make sure that the anchor was well dug in, if I was expecting a blow. I would then leave the infernal thing running for a while because I was brought up being told that leaving a diesel for short period is not good for it!

If I had had a silent, clean method of propulsion that would run for 30 minutes, it would have been the perfect engineering solution. I don't think that this is unusual for many cruisers. Certainly, it the the sort of cruising that Leo talks about.

The limited range argument is completely irrelevant to a hybrid solution as there is also a diesel engine.

Lithium batteries are hugely energy intensive to produce.

Yes, that is why the Gigafactories likes the ones in in Nevada, Australia and Sweden will use 100% renewable energy.

It doesn't make environmental sense because firstly there will be a large carbon cost of producing this overly complex system and secondly a much greater environmental benefit could be obtained by spending the money elsewhere.

This claim that the combustion engine is more environmentally sound than an electronic alternative is too complex an issue for this forum but I would point out that this is at variance with what most scientists and environmental strategists on the planet say. It is a bit like the decades long argument from the fossil fuel industry that wind power could never be economically viable. Of course, we now know that it is.





the video states that he considered having no engine at all.

 

[38mess]

I have now watched all his videos, what a great project from a very able guy.
Just adding my opinion to the electric drive. How reliable are modern diesel engines? Just start the thing a little earlier coming into harbour to make sure it works. Save all this faff.

 

[Ravi]

Just start the thing a little earlier coming into harbour to make sure it works. Save all this faff.

They are reliable but the problems is noise. It is very hard to have a full blown argument with your significant other by the anchor locker over the sound of a diesel, when you are at the helm.


Seriously, though, the smell, air and water pollution and thudding sound of a diesel engine in a beautiful remote anchorage rather goes against the whole escape to paradise thing.

 

[38mess]

They are reliable but the problems is noise. It is very hard to have a full blown argument with your significant other by the anchor locker over the sound of a diesel, when you are at the helm.


Seriously, though, the smell, air and water pollution and thudding sound of a diesel engine in a beautiful remote anchorage rather goes against the whole escape to paradise thing.

Only for half an hour surely ?

 

[Stemar]

If I had had a silent, clean method of propulsion that would run for 30 minutes, it would have been the perfect engineering solution.

And that's the point. I get the impression that Leo is, by nature, an engineless sailor, but recognises that there are times when you really, really need one, and other times - the last couple of hundred metres into port, for example, where it's seriously useful for a short while. Being able to use a silent(-ish) electric motor for that short while? Yes, I totally get that. But I, and he, I think, fully understand that when you're becalmed in the middle of the dual carriageway in the Dover Straits with sodding great container ships bearing down on you, electric power ain't going to do it. That's what the diesel donk is for. It also gets you home in time for your crew to catch the train back to the 9 to 5, which is likely to be fairly important to the economics of his projects a few years down the line.

In an ideal world, I'd only have electric, but it's too limiting, especially in busy waters and busy schedules. That may change - probably will, but we aren't there yet.

 

[mjcoon]

They are reliable but the problems is noise. It is very hard to have a full blown argument with your significant other by the anchor locker over the sound of a diesel, when you are at the helm.


Seriously, though, the smell, air and water pollution and thudding sound of a diesel engine in a beautiful remote anchorage rather goes against the whole escape to paradise thing.

If you want a "beautiful remote anchorage" so you can have a "full blown argument with your significant other", have you rather lost the plot? ;-)

BTW Is Kalamata airport still as dangerous for plane spotters as it was some decades back?

 

[halcyon]

And that's the point. I get the impression that Leo is, by nature, an engineless sailor, but recognises that there are times when you really, really need one, and other times - the last couple of hundred metres into port, for example, where it's seriously useful for a short while. Being able to use a silent(-ish) electric motor for that short while? Yes, I totally get that. But I, and he, I think, fully understand that when you're becalmed in the middle of the dual carriageway in the Dover Straits with sodding great container ships bearing down on you, electric power ain't going to do it. That's what the diesel donk is for. It also gets you home in time for your crew to catch the train back to the 9 to 5, which is likely to be fairly important to the economics of his projects a few years down the line.

In an ideal world, I'd only have electric, but it's too limiting, especially in busy waters and busy schedules. That may change - probably will, but we aren't there yet.

I think we are looking at it from the wrong view point, it's a battery charging system with alternate uses, some charge under sail, plus docking power. It's a bit like having a bow thruster, it is used in short bursts if needed, not a primary power source.

Brian

 

[mattonthesea]

In the Antigua classic yacht regatta 2010 a young Falmouth skipper would bring would sail his wooden boat up to take the bow mooring buoy, let the momentum swing the boat through 180 degrees, and , for the last few seconds , he would put the engine on to reverse onto the pontoon . I think that it's the sort of engine use that Leo envisages.