Diesel additives to clean injectors. Snake oil?

[rotrax]

Yes, but you implied that until fuel technology advanced, diesels were not used much.

Well, the Tatra vee eight air cooled diesels with their all wheel drive were found to be perfect. Especially when the perma frost melted in the summer. They told me at Koprinice that the biggest problem in the summers was air filters being blocked with half a kilo of moskito's.........................

In extreme cold they were still used, no doubt with modifications-exhausting the engines fan cooling to the fuel tank perhaps?

From 1949 until the 70's. Thousands of them, on all the major projects. The Czech's are so proud that in the Tatra Museum there is-or was-an exibit named "The Tatra 111, the truck that built Siberia.

I think there must be something in it.

 

[Refueler]

Yes, but you implied that until fuel technology advanced, diesels were not used much.

Well, the Tatra vee eight air cooled diesels with their all wheel drive were found to be perfect. Especially when the perma frost melted in the summer. They told me at Koprinice that the biggest problem in the summers was air filters being blocked with half a kilo of moskito's.........................

In extreme cold they were still used, no doubt with modifications-exhausting the engines fan cooling to the fuel tank perhaps?

From 1949 until the 70's. Thousands of them, on all the major projects. The Czech's are so proud that in the Tatra Museum there is-or was-an exibit named "The Tatra 111, the truck that built Siberia.

I think there must be something in it.

You don't give up do you .....

The winters of Siberia are too cold for diesel as you know it ... the filters and pumps would be blocked ... it wasn't until well after the war that any way to combat the problem was found ... CFPP and Pour Point depressants. Until then there were only two ways to combat it ... Kerosine and / or Gasoline.

Diesel could have Kerosine added to help in relative easy temps ... but as temps dropped further - gasoline added to break up the parifins.

Or as I already said - a grade of Kerosine used solely as the fuel.

What you have to understand is that we are not talking about a distribution network like UK / NK / DE / Fr etc. - we are talking vast distances ... in extreme conditions.

A large % of transport ran on gasoline rather than Kerosine as it was easier to obtain and the engines would keep running ... gasoline engines were the majority.

I am not swayed by Wikipedia or Czechs wanting to claim Siberia ... sorry ..
I do not disagree about Tatra ... but don't forget there are many others - Kamas and so on that can claim importance ...

 

[rotrax]

Why should I give up? It is clear that the Tatra 111 all wheel drive heavy truck was in use in Siberia, summer and winter, for 20 plus years. The photo's were there at the Tatra Museum. One showing a convoy crossing a frozen lake at minus forty. Another, in heavy snow, transporting materials for the White Sea Canal. Dont forget the air cooled engines had distinct advantages over water cooled jobs. The cooling fans output could-and were-diverted to supply hot-or at least warm-air where it was needed. Perhaps to the tanks, filters and pipes. Once you got the bastards going, of course!

Their major benifit though was when the snow melted and Siberian roads turned into a glutinous mess. They kept going when others did not. The Czechs are no mugs-it gets quite cold there too. And in some areas it is very mountainous.

If the fuel situation was as you say-and with your expert knowlege I am in no position to dispute it-if a Tatra 111 was 'hors de combat', all other diesels would be too.

Kamaz did not make anything until 1969. The big jobs in Siberia were done, or well on the way to being done by then. Many comicom countries supplied trucks to Russia, IFZ from East Germany, Skoda and Tatra from Czech plus a Polish job whose name I cant remember.

The Tatra 111 engines had one serious shortcoming. They were very noisy. Like dragging eight gas stoves down a cobbled street......................................

 

[Refueler]

Why should I give up? It is clear that the Tatra 111 all wheel drive heavy truck was in use in Siberia, summer and winter, for 20 plus years. The photo's were there at the Tatra Museum. One showing a convoy crossing a frozen lake at minus forty. Another, in heavy snow, transporting materials for the White Sea Canal. Dont forget the air cooled engines had distinct advantages over water cooled jobs. The cooling fans output could-and were-diverted to supply hot-or at least warm-air where it was needed. Perhaps to the tanks, filters and pipes. Once you got the bastards going, of course!

Their major benifit though was when the snow melted and Siberian roads turned into a glutinous mess. They kept going when others did not. The Czechs are no mugs-it gets quite cold there too. And in some areas it is very mountainous.

If the fuel situation was as you say-and with your expert knowlege I am in no position to dispute it-if a Tatra 111 was 'hors de combat', all other diesels would be too.

Kamaz did not make anything until 1969. The big jobs in Siberia were done, or well on the way to being done by then. Many comicom countries supplied trucks to Russia, IFZ from East Germany, Skoda and Tatra from Czech plus a Polish job whose name I cant remember.

The Tatra 111 engines had one serious shortcoming. They were very noisy. Like dragging eight gas stoves down a cobbled street......................................

I showed your 'writings' to older Russian guys I know have experience in this matter and they just laughed ...

Lets leave it that you believe what you believe ...

 

[thinwater]

Actually ALL petroleum products can be infected .... but gasoil is the most common of course.

Next common is Lubricating Oil .... I've actually sailed on a ship that its main engine suffered Lub Oil bug ... we had to drain ... steam ... re oil .... as well as strip - steam out and clean up Lub Purifiers etc.

It was terrible ... engine big enough you can actually get inside ... the protective coating on sump walls was sliding down with micro-bug slime between it and the steel.

Any personal history with petrol infection? I have read a few case histories, but it seems vanishingly rare. I've never seen it.

Diesel infection I have seen many, many, many ... times. Tanks up to millions.

 

[thinwater]

In the US gasoline is required to have detergent additives. They must come from a list of additives certified to produce specific lab results and be dosed at the required rate. I imagine, without researching it, this is true in the UK and EU as well. Some of the aftermarket "snake oil" is an extra dose of certified additives (Techron, for example) and some is not.

This is not required of diesel.

 

[rotrax]

I showed your 'writings' to older Russian guys I know have experience in this matter and they just laughed ...

Lets leave it that you believe what you believe ...

No, it is established fact.

The evidence is there in the Tatra Museum.

Just google 'Tatra in Siberia'.

It is all there. Tatra air cooled all wheel drive trucks working year round in the most arduous conditions.

Some posts are from Russian sites....................................

 

[Poignard]

Why should we believe any claims made by Russians?

 

[thinwater]

Re. Fuel gelling (not a boat problem for 99.9% of us)

Fuel gelling has nothing to do with the truck design. If the fuel gells from the cold it won't move out of the tank. I've seen it many times. You either add cold flow additives, or back in the day, refomulate the fuel for winter (basically kerosine).

Biodiesel made from tallow rather than vegetable source has similar problems. I recall a whole school system got shut down because the bio portion of the fuel was made from Tysons chicken fat. It had nothing to do with the engines, because it never got past the filter.

That's just fuel chemistry. Wax does not pump.

 

[fredrussell]

I showed your 'writings' to older Russian guys I know have experience in this matter and they just laughed ...

This from the web:
Czech engineer Frantishek Janoshenec described the working conditions of TATRA-111 in Siberia: The Magadan region is more than twice larger than France (1,250,000 square kilometers vs only 547,000) and touches the Ohotskoe Sea on the south. Averagel temperature in this kingdom of perpetual snow and ice is –22°С (-8°F). Locals conside COLD to be under –50°С (-60°F), and often the temperature goes as far down as –65°С (-85°C). In permafrost area the summer lasts for 50 days, and almost no vegitation can grow on the surface. Nevertheless, there were a number of cities, villages and industrial settlements in that area. The only way to reach that destination was by airplane from Moscow or by sea from Nachodka. During the coldest nights the engines would not be stopped for days, and the amount of cargo moved by vehicles was growing year-to-year. Interestingly enough, neither asphalt no cement can be used to build a road in such a climate. During 1950s, TATRA-111 did not have any competitors while delivering cargo across the Kolima Road that linked the industrial city of Magadan to Chukotka Peninsula.

 

[Refueler]

Let me say it again ..

I did not say Diesel ENGINES were not around ...

What I gave info on was the FUEL Used and NECESSARY to run such an engine in extreme cold. Diesel as YOU know it cannot be used ... so Kerosine and when really extreme low temps - mix of Kerosine and Petrol ....
I even gave example of Nanouk Diesel - which is actually DPK based (Dual Purpose Kerosine) ... used in Alaska and Arctic .. as to Antarctic - I never supplied to there - but it must have been similar or gasoline.

Majority of trucks until the advent of treated diesel and reliability of running were petrol powered in cold regions Russia ... FACT ...

 

[rotrax]

Agreed. I would not argue with your expertise on fuel. Except the last line-nowhere colder in Russia than Siberia, no other truck could cope with certain journeys, only the Tatra 111 diesel. There, petrol trucks could no doubt run, but could not hack the journeys.

But, in the particularly harsh Siberian climate and terrain, only the Air Cooled Diesel All Wheel Drive Tatra was a successful vehicle until the Soviets copied and caught up. The Russian state motor industry after WW2 produced very few vehicles of any type by comparison to the West's output. About 350 thousand in 1950 IIRC. It was many years before they exceeded their pre WW2 output. They topped up with war loot and vehicles, especially Skoda and Tatra from Czech and other comicom countries. Show your Russian Mates what fredrussel found, see what they say.

Tatra obviously got over the starting/running of their engines in extreme cold one way or the other. I know that Home Market Tatra trucks used exiting air from the dual fans to heat the filters and water separators. I have been in Czech when it was minus 20C. Plenty of Tatra's working at those temperatures. No doubt the Czech State's Benzina company had the fuel blending expertise to provide a suitable cold weather fuel.