Debutante frog rip off
- Thread starter Madhatter
- Start date
Tranona
Well-known member
No, just a child of its times! Philip Harle was a highly respected designer. The boats were built in large numbers by owners and used by sailing schools all over western France including Glenans.
reginaldon
New member
So who did the ripping off?
sarabande
Well-known member
well at least 583 were built by these people
http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=4144
I reckon, MadH, there's a limited number of design options that an Aval Narchitect can achieve with chunks of plywood and 21ft length.
How's your boat(s) coming along, BTW ? Got the central heating and widescreen installed ?
http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=4144
I reckon, MadH, there's a limited number of design options that an Aval Narchitect can achieve with chunks of plywood and 21ft length.
How's your boat(s) coming along, BTW ? Got the central heating and widescreen installed ?
Tom Price
N/A
Madhatter
New member
OK ,so maybe not a rip off just " in the style of ".
Young French girls in a cramped cabin ooooeeerr.
Sarabande-- couldn't get the wide screen in as my Smeg range cooker took up too much room.( waiting to get into the new workshop to start it)
Young French girls in a cramped cabin ooooeeerr
.Sarabande-- couldn't get the wide screen in as my Smeg range cooker took up too much room.( waiting to get into the new workshop to start it)
matthew99
Member
FWIW - have a look at:
http://apmphotos.free.fr/2000/07_national/Nat0009.jpg
and compare with:
http://bursledonblog.blogspot.com/2010/06/robert-tucker-designs.html
they appear very different designs
http://apmphotos.free.fr/2000/07_national/Nat0009.jpg
and compare with:
http://bursledonblog.blogspot.com/2010/06/robert-tucker-designs.html
they appear very different designs
Seajet
...
'Lots of World Records set by Tristan Jones'...oh dear ! Did he say he'd sailed to Mars or something in this one ?
C
Chrusty 1
Guest
This cut from "Class notes" Classic Boat magazine........
"They are best sailed upright, and the main needs to be reefed quite early. Tristan Jones said that sailing Sea Dart to windward was like "Being on top of a double decker bus accelerating to 40mph while jerking to a stop every three seconds." This hasn't stopped them from doing transatlantics though, and constant tweaking does help with performance. Vital statistics A striking debut? Tristan Jones made the Debutante class famous by achieving the 'vertical sailing record of the world' in his Deb. He sailed Sea Dart around South America and then hauled her across the Andes to Lake Titicaca, 3 miles (4.8km) above sea level. A debut abroad? A French version of the Debutante was brought out in the 1960s called the Muscadet. Good performer?"
I think there was some licensing agreement with Robert Tucker for the Frog Jobbie.
"They are best sailed upright, and the main needs to be reefed quite early. Tristan Jones said that sailing Sea Dart to windward was like "Being on top of a double decker bus accelerating to 40mph while jerking to a stop every three seconds." This hasn't stopped them from doing transatlantics though, and constant tweaking does help with performance. Vital statistics A striking debut? Tristan Jones made the Debutante class famous by achieving the 'vertical sailing record of the world' in his Deb. He sailed Sea Dart around South America and then hauled her across the Andes to Lake Titicaca, 3 miles (4.8km) above sea level. A debut abroad? A French version of the Debutante was brought out in the 1960s called the Muscadet. Good performer?"
I think there was some licensing agreement with Robert Tucker for the Frog Jobbie.
ianc1200
Well-known member
Andy
I'm sure some (at least one?) of the things he said was true; I'm lending my vast hoard of TJ books to a friend who is determined to read them before the expose biography.
IanC
I'm sure some (at least one?) of the things he said was true; I'm lending my vast hoard of TJ books to a friend who is determined to read them before the expose biography.
IanC
Madhatter
New member
Seajet
...
I'm afraid I can't see any relation between the Muscadet, which is a fine boat, and the Debutante, which is sadly not; Tucker only designed the odd 1 or 2 decently performing boats in his life and this wasn't one of them.
He probably was good at using plywood, I'd think that his best strength ( I know he did others inc' steel ) but the only relationship between the 2 boats is that they are flush decked, note the Muscadet is 24' with I'm pretty sure a fin keel.
A Tucker Mystic, also a flush decker, will always have a place in my heart as the first boat I ever sailed on, but I also remember tacking across the Solent in good weather and not making any ground, with an average speed around 3 knots; Tucker doesn't seem to have ever heard of wetted area drag, and his designs feature a lot of frontal area drag as well.
It's great for nostalgia and history to see boats like Debutantes still going strong, and good luck to them, just don't forget the diabolical sailing qualities !
He probably was good at using plywood, I'd think that his best strength ( I know he did others inc' steel ) but the only relationship between the 2 boats is that they are flush decked, note the Muscadet is 24' with I'm pretty sure a fin keel.
A Tucker Mystic, also a flush decker, will always have a place in my heart as the first boat I ever sailed on, but I also remember tacking across the Solent in good weather and not making any ground, with an average speed around 3 knots; Tucker doesn't seem to have ever heard of wetted area drag, and his designs feature a lot of frontal area drag as well.
It's great for nostalgia and history to see boats like Debutantes still going strong, and good luck to them, just don't forget the diabolical sailing qualities !
C
Chrusty 1
Guest
Perhaps you should have a look here at the Muscadet specs?
http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=4144
The Deb performed well given her size and very modest draft, The Silhouette, another by Tucker sailed well too, especially the MK3, in fin or bilge version, there was little difference between the two, except with maybe a slight, (and it is slight) difference to windward, which to the cruising sailor is mostly irrelevant.
Have a read of this, if you haven't already?
http://www.classicboat.co.uk/classnotes/252855/debutante
Debs, Silhouettes and Caprices etc. were designed by Robert Tucker to try and bring sailing to everyone, very competitively priced and easily trailed, he just about succeeded, and if we are measuring success, then the Silhouette must rank as one of the most of any ever built. I suppose it depends on where your interests lie, if you are a racing man, and inveterate string twitcher, then yes, I can understand your point of view, none, (as far as I am aware) of Robert Tucker's designs from the cheaper end of the market were what you would call rapid, but they were safe little boats that would look after you and yours, and in the right hands some of them were and still are competitive at club level racing.
You also said "just don't forget the diabolical sailing qualities!" Well I am sorry, but there are many folk that would disagree with you, me being one, I think the Classic Boat review is pretty fair regarding the Deb, of it's time, it was a little star, but yes we have come a long way since then, the passage of time is surely not kind to a number of designs that today would be considered slow, and poor performers, but in their day were considered good. I suppose it all depends on how you measure performance really, to some good performance means speed and demon pointy uppedness! (that is three syllables by the way) To some, good performance means simply being a pleasant sail, and getting home in one piece!
All in my humble blah-blah-blah etc.
Chrusty.
http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=4144
The Deb performed well given her size and very modest draft, The Silhouette, another by Tucker sailed well too, especially the MK3, in fin or bilge version, there was little difference between the two, except with maybe a slight, (and it is slight) difference to windward, which to the cruising sailor is mostly irrelevant.
Have a read of this, if you haven't already?
http://www.classicboat.co.uk/classnotes/252855/debutante
Debs, Silhouettes and Caprices etc. were designed by Robert Tucker to try and bring sailing to everyone, very competitively priced and easily trailed, he just about succeeded, and if we are measuring success, then the Silhouette must rank as one of the most of any ever built. I suppose it depends on where your interests lie, if you are a racing man, and inveterate string twitcher, then yes, I can understand your point of view, none, (as far as I am aware) of Robert Tucker's designs from the cheaper end of the market were what you would call rapid, but they were safe little boats that would look after you and yours, and in the right hands some of them were and still are competitive at club level racing.
You also said "just don't forget the diabolical sailing qualities!" Well I am sorry, but there are many folk that would disagree with you, me being one, I think the Classic Boat review is pretty fair regarding the Deb, of it's time, it was a little star, but yes we have come a long way since then, the passage of time is surely not kind to a number of designs that today would be considered slow, and poor performers, but in their day were considered good. I suppose it all depends on how you measure performance really, to some good performance means speed and demon pointy uppedness! (that is three syllables by the way)
To some, good performance means simply being a pleasant sail, and getting home in one piece!All in my humble blah-blah-blah etc.
Chrusty.
Seajet
...
I may have sailed a lot of racing dinghies, but actually I just enjoy the boats, never have been into pointless laps of someone elses' course, I'd rather get where I am going in an enjoyable, responsive boat ( winter sailing in dinghies is different, really stuck with racing for safety's sake ); however I'm not a performance nut or inveterate string puller, much.
I just remember quite a few sails in the Mystic when we invariably missed the tide to get back on the mooring, after tacking to & fro with painfully slow progress; all Tucker's designs are big on wetted area, and a rather less than powerful rig / ballast ratio combination.
I've not seen Caprices or Silhouettes exactly planing on the tips of their keels either !
Don't get me wrong, I think the world would be a poorer place without them, but they are dreadfully limited compared to even other 1960's - 70's cruisers.
I just remember quite a few sails in the Mystic when we invariably missed the tide to get back on the mooring, after tacking to & fro with painfully slow progress; all Tucker's designs are big on wetted area, and a rather less than powerful rig / ballast ratio combination.
I've not seen Caprices or Silhouettes exactly planing on the tips of their keels either !
Don't get me wrong, I think the world would be a poorer place without them, but they are dreadfully limited compared to even other 1960's - 70's cruisers.
Seanick
Member
I have very fond memories of My Deb, including short tacking up Chichester Harbour from the entrance to Itchenor against a Westerly Fulmar-we slowly drew ahead and 'won'.
However another time trying to cross Lyme Bay to windward she did not like the chop. A Folkboat passed us like a fish, slipping through the waves as we made 1 mile per hour......
(we gave up and went to Exmouth in the end)
However that was the was the worst bit from a great trip to Falmouth and back where the little boat did well, covering the miles in the right conditions and providing good acommadation and mooring at the cheap(free) shallow and drying spots.
However another time trying to cross Lyme Bay to windward she did not like the chop. A Folkboat passed us like a fish, slipping through the waves as we made 1 mile per hour......
(we gave up and went to Exmouth in the end)
However that was the was the worst bit from a great trip to Falmouth and back where the little boat did well, covering the miles in the right conditions and providing good acommadation and mooring at the cheap(free) shallow and drying spots.
DownWest
Well-known member
Hahttp://laflottille.chez-alice.fr/fiche_muscadet.htmve a look at this: The Muscadet is 6.5 mt. so not 24ft. I doubt the 'licence' from Tucker's board. And as it had a fin and skeg, probably outperformed the Deb quite easily.
A while back, PBO carried an account of a young couple who sailed a Muscadet to Taihiti from UK, through the canal. Their only big problem was the skeg busting near Panama. Managed OK tho.
Oops. Try http://iroise-sailing.com/ and look at their fleet. I am quite tempted to join up.
A while back, PBO carried an account of a young couple who sailed a Muscadet to Taihiti from UK, through the canal. Their only big problem was the skeg busting near Panama. Managed OK tho.
Oops. Try http://iroise-sailing.com/ and look at their fleet. I am quite tempted to join up.
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reginaldon
New member
With you Chrusty1, a read of Shrimpy should convince of the Caprice's seagoing qualities.
C
Chrusty 1
Guest
Thanks for the solidarity Reg? I see you own one of the wee beasties. I quite like some of Robert Tuckers designs, some of them were a little idiosyncratic to be sure, but I don't think they were any the worse for that. It seems to me that as well as being grossly over priced, modern small boats have gone the way of euro blob motor cars, in that they all seem to look the same. I don't think I dislike the look of modern small boats, I just wish there was a bit more variety in style, but I dare say that computers and marketing men play a large part in the design of them, so I suppose it's not surprising that they have a certain uniformity.
Shane Acton!? Now there was a young man I admired, no bally hoo, no pack drill, just went off and did it, these days a young man would have to have a back up team, a press office, and every conceivable navigation aid that he could bolt to the boat, and three or four Eburps so everybody would know where he was if and when he was sinking!........Young wipper snappers today, have never heard of drowning like a gentleman!
I sometimes wish that I had had a Deb, always liked them, but whenever I had the spare readies to buy a boat, there have never been any for sale, and when there was one or two about, I never had the money! A situation I am sure that many of us are familiar with?
How are you getting on with your Caprice? I hope she is giving you some happy sailing. If she is, then surely that is a proper measure of "performance"
Chrusty.
