Dare I say it, the "A" word ... Anchor advice ....

Re: Dare I say it, the \"A\" word ... Anchor advice ....

[ QUOTE ]
I therefore submit that the rocna is a case in point.. not bad, good in the right bottom, useless in weed.. same for most of the other types.


[/ QUOTE ]

Not sure that I agree with you here. - The reason achors don't set in weed is that if you drag for any distance, you choke the anchor with weed. On the otherhand, if the anchor does not drag - but digs in at once, as my experiance is with the Manson, this is presicely what happens. I think the Rocna would have similar digging in capabilities of the Manson. If you are a CQR follower and like to drag it 100ft before setting, then I am not surprised that anchoring with weed is a problem!
 
Re: Dare I say it, the \"A\" word ... Anchor advice ....

There is no weed anywhere that, by itself, is sufficiently strong to anchor a yacht in a blow, of that I'm sure. So, for an anchor to be safe it needs to penetrate beyond the roots and into the seabed sufficiently to get a hold into the bed. With much of the weed in the western Med that means the anchor has to be sharp and heavy - an anchor designed to present a point into the bed is, of course, the best way to go and that's what the Delta, Danforth, Fortress, Spade and Rocna seem to do. The Bruce don't seem to be very successful here in the Med unless you sharpen them with an angle grinder, then they can work OK.

My yacht dragged while I was ashore, with a heavy Bruce deployed, in winds of around F5. A kind yachtie boarded and took my Danforth kedge and set that using lengths of anchorplait dock line that I had on deck - with no chain, as he didn't know where I keep the chain for that. When I returned to the yacht I was lying happily to a Danforth in thick weed with only rope in a F5 to F6! Pointy bits seem to break through the weed and into the bottom. The CQR hasn't got a very good pointy bit and it tends to lie on its side.

However, I will never leave the boat anchored on weed now unless I have been able to dive down and make a visual or dug it in by hand (a very experienced cruiser friend of mine does that often and he often finds some fixed moorings to use instead when he's down there!).

I don't doubt that the Rocna is an excellent anchor but I would never, ever, leave the boat anchored in weed or go to sleep if dragging could cause danger or damage. There is no way to know at the surface whether the Rocna has penetrated through the weed and into the seabed - and a power-reverse might not show it up especially if you only have a little auxiliary, say under 50hp.
 
Re: Dare I say it, the \"A\" word ... Anchor advice ....

Hi Richard, I’m still with Lady J on this point. I perfectly respect your wish to change anchor but it’s clear that the overwhelming majority of people who bought their boats with a CQR don’t. Most of them could afford to change them if they felt the need and most would I think if they were as dissatisfied with there performance as this thread suggests. Our primary is a 75lb CQR and its replacement is not even on the wish list.

Best wishes

mike
 
Re: Dare I say it, the \"A\" word ... Anchor advice ....

I would LOVE to swop my 45lb cqr for a rocna, or even a delta /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif It is the next thing on the shopping list after the new mainsail I haven't ordered yet.
 
Re: Dare I say it, the \"A\" word ... Anchor advice ....

[ QUOTE ]
JSeems many people in NZ are now using Rocna / Manson anchors - a trend may spread? Or is it because both are made in NZ?

[/ QUOTE ]

Both sure are made (currently) and being used extensively here. No bad reports to date except a few who brought and didn't realise how physically large they are.

They have been on the market for a few years now and are taking over from the older designs, it's very noticeable. So much so Manson is struggling to keep up and have employed a few more people to try and keep on top of them. I also know Rocna has been pouring them out the door.

We've sold piles of both and have yet to hear any serious poor performance reports. There have been a couple but they track back to the idiot using them or poorly set-up rodes behind them.

[ QUOTE ]
There is also quite a healthy debate over prices, specifically the big price difference between Manson and Rocna,

[/ QUOTE ]

One makes 1000's of anchors a year and one doesn't, is one of the reasons.

[ QUOTE ]
and the Llyod's Super High Holding Power certificate the Manson has.

[/ QUOTE ]
The first and only Lloyd's has given it to. Manson are currently looking to be the only company in the world to have 2 SHHP anchors approved by Lloyd's. Watch this space.

[ QUOTE ]
Interestingly - the slotted shank in the Manson which has been critised by Rocna is now available as a feature on Rocna's. Wonder what the story is there?

[/ QUOTE ]

After all the incorrect banging on about people copying the Rocna, which itself is just a Spade copy. One does wonder about the silence from certain places /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
Re: Dare I say it, the \"A\" word ... Anchor advice ....

[ QUOTE ]
The point is, with the more modern anchors being 'throw and forget' why would you choose to use one which requires careful technique to coax it to set properly

[/ QUOTE ] If you really think that there is such a thing as a 'throw and forget' anchor; I doubt that you have ever used an anchor in a real life situation. At least not successfully.

I think it is both irresponsible and dangerous that the manufacturers of these 'modern anchors' support such marketing nonsense. The Easter Bunny exists in the same realm as these 'throw and forget' anchors.
 
Re: Dare I say it, the \"A\" word ... Anchor advice ....

I don't believe you can just 'throw and forget', but my point was that the more modern anchors appear to set very quickly and easily compared to the traditional anchors - as proved by the recent tests - I was trying to suggest that if you had the choice why wouldn't you choose one that set more easily? I have anchored for a couple of years with a CQR and sometimes have to drop two or three times to get a good set, however others with a Delta can set first time in the same areas. This is something that others have echoed on here - with the newer anchors being easier to set.

Apologies if I caused confusion with my terminology.

Jonny
 
Re: Oceane

I have about a 12 Kg Oceane I think and used it as my main anchor on a 4 tonne 30 footer for about three years.

I think they developed the Sword out of the Oceane because of the twisting you mentioned, due I think to its short stock length.

I choose the weight I did because the extra thickness of the stock seem a good idea but maybe not. It can lay on its side on hard sand. I have added a small float to the crown for several reasons but the drag with the buoyancy ensures its point is always downamost.

It has held in a bumpy 51 knots on a 4x ratio when Deltas were off out to sea in the night.

The Sword has a longer stock. The nib and the angle change have been removed, according to the importers, because they were unnecessary. I have only used angle change twice to advantage in slurry-like mud.
 
Re: Dare I say it, the \"A\" word ... Anchor advice ....

I don't agree with the statement 'modern anchors seem to set more quickly'. That is what the marketing guys of these manufacturers wants you to believe, there is no proof of that whatsoever.

Having cruised and anchored extensively for about 45 years (I grew up in Scandinavia where you have to anchor, no other choice), I do think that anchoring technique is the defining factor. There might be some slight benefit from the modern designs, but that effect is miniscule compared to the effect of a skippers decision on where, when and how to drop an anchor. My own view is that anchor design might have a 10% effect (at best) and technique 90% on the success on anchoring. Anyone who tells you that anchor design have a larger impact than anchoring technique is deluding you.

Last September, I had the benefit of cruising together with two of my boat friends who had changed to these 'modern anchors'. One had a Rocna and one had a Spade. They had both needed to change from Bruce, which seems to work fine in Scandinavia but not in the Med. We did not have a scientific test by any means, but we could not find any noticable benefit to my CQR any day. One day we did anchor in a place that is my most difficult anchorage; lots of weeds and I usually have to drop 3-4 times before I have a set. Well, this time I had to drop 4 times, the Rocna had to drop 4 times and the Spade had to drop 3 times before we were all safely in. I would call it a draw and in no way did we see a 'throw and forget' performance. I think my friends could have all bought CQR's, saved themselves a lot of money (and in the case of the Rocna, a very expensive and ugly rework of the bow roller) and have had at least the same anchor performance, if not better.

Again, I think it is seriously irresponsible and dangerous to market these 'modern anchors' as 'throw and forget'. It sends the wrong message and can get boats into trouble. We participated in a salvage operation on Symi Island in August when a British couple with a Spade anchor really thought it was a 'sets anytime, anywhere' as the Spade designer describes it to be. Someone nearly lost their boat because of this nonsense. Please let it be understood that anchor design cannot save a boat. Only Skippers who understand anchoring technique can.
 
Re: Dare I say it, the \"A\" word ... Anchor advice ....

"Only Skippers who understand anchoring technique can."

But surely a skilled skipper would always prefer an anchor that was easier to set - it's a no-brainer /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

I consider myself well-practiced and anchor 95% of the time when cruising, but there are several places I regularly go where it sometimes take several attempts to set. I know others with a different anchor who say what's the problem, ours sets first time.
 
Re: Dare I say it, the \"A\" word ... Anchor advice ....

Sorry LadyJ, you're onto a loser here.

As a 12 year CQR, 3 year Spade user I can attest to the fact that the Spade sets in circumstances where the CQR just doesn't or with great difficulty. My 35lb CQR had problems in setting on compacted sand beds and those with light weed strewn over the beds.

The Spade just sticks, the CQR just didn't. Same boat, same technique, same skipper.

And before you ask, I've used CQRs, Bruce, Fortress, Spade and grapnel anchors in differing beds and different boats.
 
Re: Dare I say it, the \"A\" word ... Anchor advice ....

Hi Chris,
I think LadyJessie is spot on to be honest.
It IS about technique, and a small percentage design, AND the misleading garbage the advertisers are using these days is dangerous, and negligent as said above, to say the least.

One guy mentions above about his anchor holding while the 'delta guys were out to sea'
I submit that that would indicate a sensible approach in winds of that strength for any seasoned seaman.


You also say something like, same boat, same technique same skipper...
That 'could' indicate a fault in technique or indeed a good technique,

Personally I use a delta, cos it fits the bow roller and is strong and heavy.. and its from a reputed company, who also designed an earlier model, the cqr.

These threads always degrade to some extent, becuase the plain fact is exactly as Jessie says.. the ANCHOR is a small percentage, the rest is experience and proper technique, and a sensible choice of ground.

Any advertiser that uses a car pulling a hook into a garden lawn is not worth talking to as their sales techniques are ridiculous and misleading, and downright dangerous fro less experienced sailors.
Joe
 
Re: Dare I say it, the \"A\" word ... Anchor advice ....

Joe,

If you are not prepared to consider the new and mistrust all claims made by manufacuturers and ignore those that use and are happy with the product, we're not going to agree on this. By the way the Delta, when first introduced, used to be the anchor everybody praised/slagged not so long ago, .

Suggest you keep your Delta, you are happy with it and I'll keep to my Spade.

Chris
 
Re: Dare I say it, the \"A\" word ... Anchor advice ....

Chris, dont get me wrong, absolutely.. Stick with what works for you.

As said, that is WHY these threads have dgreaded in the past.

I dont like DUBIOUS and MISLEADING advertising. I find Rocna
and Fortress to be two of the worst culprits on that.

Cheers
Joe
 
Re: Dare I say it, the \"A\" word ... Anchor advice ....

Now, now Joe, you're throwing petrol on the fire, I use a Fortress as well /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Personally, for me it's buyer beware and whilst, yes, manufacturers make loud claims, it's the users that will cause the problems by not using them sensibly, I guess both you and I would call that technique...
 
Re: Dare I say it, the \"A\" word ... Anchor advice ....

Hi Chris..
Sorry, must add
I ALSO have an FX16 fortress as a kedge... /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Bought it at a jumble for 60 squids..

Good, lightweight etc..

Wouldnt use it as a bower though...

/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif /forums/images/graemlins/ooo.gif /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
 
Re: Dare I say it, the \"A\" word ... Anchor advice ....

These threads always take a downward turn at some point - which was why I was loathe to post in the first place, but the advice so far has been fantastic - so big thanks to all who have posted.

I think your point is fair - stick with what works for you.

Some love their CQR and will defend it to the hills, in this instance, absolutley stick with it. Others have had problems with their CQR / Bruce etc and have therefore sought an alternative that solves the problem for others and therefore they hope will solve their problems.

I think the consensus from people who have used both types is generally that the newer anchors do tend to set easier than the older types, and this is supported by the tests in YM etc. I have no doubt that technique plays a big factor and that you could set a CQR with good technique easier than a Rocna/Manson/Spade with a bad technique. But with a simalar technique the newer ones appear to be easier to use.

I also agree some manufacturers out there advertise very heavily and perhaps push their products too hard as opposed to just letting them sell themselves - but this is their choice and most cruisers are level headed and intelligent enough to spot this and make their own decisions on what to believe and what to avoid.

As you cite, Fortress has such advertising, yet you yourself (if I recall correclty) say the Fortress is an excellent anchor. You are therefore a prime example of someone who can see through the advertising to choose an anchor that works for you.

Again, the purpose of the thread was to see which anchors worked for which people in an attempt to help solve the 'which anchor' debate we are having. Lots of good advice and first hand experience from everyone. It's not a topic I expect to get a definative answer on, I doubt we ever will, but the information from everyone is much appreciated and I think we are much closer to our decision (whether I feel brave enough to publically announce this is another question!!)

Jonny
 
Re: Dare I say it, the \"A\" word ... Anchor advice ....

Johhy,

Oh boo for being such a reasonable chap, the flames were just getting going /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
Thanks for keeping the debate on a level keel.

Chris
 
Re: Dare I say it, the \"A\" word ... Anchor advice ....

I know, thats the boring accountant in me trying to keep things sensible ...

Perhaps it should have read ... "what a load of tosh, you backward people with your old anchors don't know what your missing" - but then that really would start a riot /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Jonny
 
Re: Dare I say it, the \"A\" word ... Anchor advice ....

[ QUOTE ]
It IS about technique, and a small percentage design,

[/ QUOTE ]

I am somewhat puzzled by this - if design is so unimportant then why do you not use a Fortress as a bower anchor?


Sorry Jonny-H. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
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