Dare I say it, the "A" word ... Anchor advice ....

Re: Dare I say it, the \"A\" word ... Anchor advice ....

[ QUOTE ]
CQR. If you look at the bow of a long distance cruising boat; this is the anchor you will find most often. There is a reason for that. It has been proven to be the best in real life situations, as opposed to 'sailing mag's tests'. My CQR has yet to let me down in 20 years of cruising many different and difficult areas of the world.

[/ QUOTE ]

My educated guess is that the CQR is on most of these boats because they were bought with it, (new or 2nd hand), and they have made do, perhaps anchoring only in sand or mud, and perhaps being satisfied that if it takes 4 or 5 goes to get it set, (on occasion), that that is the norm.

I have been anchoring for only 5 months, (last summer), having been sailing for 30 years or more.

As most will be aware, I have fairly quickly been let down by my CQR on several occasions in this short space of time and, had my health issue not overtaken, I would have bought a Rocna or a Spade, and would be busy testing and reporting on it in April.... unfortunately, that's not to be, so I cant prove irrevocably to myself that I am right.

However, I think there are enough here willing to report the improved performance of their new gen. anchor, to suggest that there is something in it.

I wonder how many owners who have some experience of anchoring, and who decide to buy a new anchor, buy a CQR, or CQR type, these days... I think that would be the truer test, rather than counting anchors on bows. Even that question may not be definitive as it is quite difficult to walk into a chandlers and buy a new gen anchor off the shelf. Plenty of Deltas, Bruces etc..

I guess the question could be "If you were buying an anchor today, what would you buy"
 
Re: Dare I say it, the \"A\" word ... Anchor advice ....

Hi Richard
Personally I think the issue is that there are not many who have anchored with differing systems. i.e, many have tried one or two, and had good or bad experiences. The ones with good experiences swear by them and quite rightly stick to them. Those with bad experiences often dont.
However, this is were the problem starts.. WHY did they have bad experiences in the first place, using an older type anchor it is unlikely to be a design issue. More than likely technique, scope, choice of bottom, awareness of where the boat may lie as the wind changes and setting skills. The sheep principle lol, seeing 3 boats and tucking in close to them rather than making an educated decision.
One post above mentions a certain anchor that is great in weed.. well, imho there is NO anchor that is good in weed, and no sailor would knowingly anchor in weed apart from a quick lunch hook.

Boat rag anchor tests are imho flawed and totally unrealistic.

For instance, whats the best anchor for all round use in the Scillies ?.. answer, Fisherman, ask any local..
However, if you anchor in St Helens pool at the RIGHT area, then most designs of repute are suitable.

There is a trend in yotting as in most other things of total consumerism and newer is better. Often Wally Weekender in the Solent has sucess with xyz make, his pals have had bad experiences through lack of skills, they all start buying xyz believing it is NOT them at fault.. they also read up a tad more after said bad experience and gain a little skill.

I therefore submit that the rocna is a case in point.. not bad, good in the right bottom, useless in weed.. same for most of the other types.

TECHNIQUE TECHNIQUE and TECHNIQUE me thinks.
/forums/images/graemlins/ooo.gif
 
Re: Dare I say it, the \"A\" word ... Anchor advice ....

[ QUOTE ]
For instance, whats the best anchor for all round use in the Scillies ?.. answer, Fisherman, ask any local..

[/ QUOTE ]Unless the locals in the Scillies, and no offense is meant to them, have extensive experience with every type of anchor available, then such a conclusion is totally invalid. It is more likely to indicate that the Fisherman works better than the CQR or Danforth, which are likely to be the typical alternatives tested at one time then discarded. That speaks to the failings of those latter types, and in no way makes any useful comparison between the Fisherman and Rocna, or whatever other type has not been tried and adopted.

[ QUOTE ]
There is a trend in yotting as in most other things of total consumerism and newer is better. Often Wally Weekender in the Solent has sucess with xyz make, his pals have had bad experiences through lack of skills, they all start buying xyz believing it is NOT them at fault.. they also read up a tad more after said bad experience and gain a little skill.

[/ QUOTE ]On the contrary I personally feel that the majority of boaters, even newbies, are extremely conservative. We have a very tough time convincing people that something designed in the early 1930s was a decent first time effort but is by no means the final say on the matter... one cannot sell to boaters in the same way Nike might sell shoes, or MacDonalds sell burgers. The marketing must be factual, convincing, and independent feedback and word of mouth is utterly critical.

[ QUOTE ]
I therefore submit that the rocna is a case in point.. not bad, good in the right bottom, useless in weed.. same for most of the other types.

[/ QUOTE ]I take it you've never used a Rocna?

The nice thing about feedback from most of our customers is that it is comparative feedback. They usually have experience with older types and know very well what their problems are. The more experienced, the better they know... it is usually the less experienced who continue to use poor anchors on the basis that if it's been around for 80 years, and lots of other people have them, then they must be the best... or they think that having to drag the anchor 50m before it sets is "normal".

In essence, I can quote you a large number of entirely independent comments from very experienced boaters worldwide who are very firm on their positive opinion of Rocna vs CQR (for example). I cannot think of any contrary example, despite all these online discussions which occur whether we like it or not, and I would defy you to find such to support your own argument. All the naysaying from the likes of LadyJessie comes from those without any comparative experience of their own.

Lastly, perhaps you could research some of the feedback relating to the Rocna in weed, and retract your statement unless you believe it is true on account of your own experience.
 
Re: Dare I say it, the \"A\" word ... Anchor advice ....

[ QUOTE ]
Boat rag anchor tests are imho flawed and totally unrealistic.

[/ QUOTE ]

I appreciate they don't simulate exact real life conditions, but the latest YM/SAIL magazine has done as good a job as I think they can. All same sized anchors, all on same rode, all in same area, all off the same boat. The fact that some hold better than others can purely be down to design. If the testers set every anchor, then their technique will be fairly consistent. Watching the beach test videos (I know they are not simulations of anchoring conditions, but bear with me), it is clear that the Rocna / Manson / Spade bury themselves much deeper much quicker than the CQR / Bruce anchors do.

In terms of 'new fangled gadgets' attracting people - why not? If something is an improvement on an old design why not buy it? Why do people have power steering on cars when normal steering still works? Same for ABS brakes, airbags, traction control etc. Apply this to boats, why have electronic chart plotters when you can have paper charts? Why have an electric windlass when a manual one does the job?

Newer isn't always better, but newer products benefit from the development of the old ones - cars are a prime example. A new mondeo is cheaper (comparably), faster, safer, better to drive, more reliable and more comfortable than a Cortina was. Development and evolution happens - same with anchors. Take a good design (CQR) and improve it (Delta) - proved. Take a Delta and refine it further (Spade / Rocna).

I agree there is always an element of rode choice, seabed, technique etc - but the pointy bit on the bottom has to have an effect. If not why did the CQR get designed when people were using Fisherman anchors? I'm sure at that time people said 'Fishermans always work why change to this new funny shaped CQR thing'

Just some thoughts .....

Jonny
 
Re: Dare I say it, the \"A\" word ... Anchor advice ....

[ QUOTE ]
Personally I think the issue is that there are not many who have anchored with differing systems......For instance, whats the best anchor for all round use in the Scillies ?.. answer, Fisherman, ask any local..

[/ QUOTE ]Joe, That isn't my experience. Loads of people come down to the Med with whatever their boats were fitted with originally then after a season of anchoring every day they start to think about alternatives and look at the Deltas, Spades, Rocnas, Bugels,.. There is a lot of discussion about anchors here and people have tried them and had bad experiences. When you are in an anchorage you tend to watch intently whenever a new person arrives because so many deploy inappropriate ground tackle, the wrong length of rode and drop in the wrong place, putting you at risk. As soon as you hear an engine or the clatter of chain you put your head up. I've yet to see anyone deploy anything but their normal bower anchor unless stern-mooring or mooring between two anchors. I have never seen a fisherman deployed. CQRs are the common old anchors with Danforth/Fortress as a kedge or second anchor. The Danforth/Fortress is probably an excellent choice but the CQR isn't. Neither is the Bruce, which I came down with and have now exchanged for a Delta (Rocna was a little bit too big or I would have bought a Rocna). I've only seen one Rocna down here - they don't have a critical mass (yet) but competition is stiff, anchors are expensive and yachties are cutting back costs.
 
Re: Dare I say it, the \"A\" word ... Anchor advice ....

Hi David, yes, I too use a delta as the bower, no reason at all to change.
The sales rep comments re rocna on the scillies is ludicrous.. why would the local fishermen and boat owners want to change something that works !!. no reason at all.

I am sure many in the med change anchors, but again, why ?.. is it due to technique or actual holding power ?.. or, the choice of anchoring ground. ?.. often a bit off all.

I have absolutely no reason to or intention of changing the delta, the bruce, or the fortress kedge, or indeed the old danforth, or the grapple hook for the rib.
The rocna salesman will be telling us it holds in weed next
/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Ex Scillonian boatman, fisherman and drinker.
 
Re: Dare I say it, the \"A\" word ... Anchor advice ....

[ QUOTE ]

The rocna salesman will be telling us it holds in weed next


Ex Scillonian boatman, fisherman and drinker.

[/ QUOTE ]

Erm - it does , I have no great experience anchoring, but I bought a rocna last year because it has a reputation for digging in in weed ( Colin Speedie on the rocna website and also here on the forum rates the rocna for sailing in the hebrides because of its use in weed) I anchored twice on weed last year, the Rocna appears "fire and forget" in this situation. drop anchor run out rode, fire engine up to full reverse revs and watch rode go bar taught if you want. The anchor didn't budge or drag through weed. It seems to cut through and just dig into the sand, and the harder you pull it, the deeper it digs. In the few times I have used it (8 or 9) it has set every time, absolutely solidly on first go.

No link to rocna other than very satisfied customer - its made anchoring really easy for me.
 
Re: Dare I say it, the \"A\" word ... Anchor advice ....

[ QUOTE ]
The rocna salesman will be telling us it holds in weed next

[/ QUOTE ]The 'rocna salesman' doesn't need to, independent feedback will do it for him.

Edit: there, someone beat him to it. /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif

Like this, mentioning weed and kelp in the Hebrides:
www.rocna.com/main.php?section=real&chapter=endorse&page=2

And this, on eel grass and, ahem, lawn grass too /forums/images/graemlins/ooo.gif
"My new Rocna has been a flawless performer so far. This damn anchor has even set at a 2:1 for five out of five sets at three separate locations… My CQR could never penetrate eel grass and this thing just burrows into it like a hot knife through butter... Heck I even tested my Rocna on my very thick, dense, and healthy lawn with my car… It set and buried in 3.5 feet." – Rodd Collins (Maine USA)

As above, you could reconsider your blanket statement unless you have contradictory experience of your own to contribute to the discussion.
 
Re: Dare I say it, the \"A\" word ... Anchor advice ....

Re weed.
I submit that anyone trusting any anhcor in weed is asking for trouble.

Or again. are YOU saying your anchor WILL hold in weed, and the boat and crew will be safe, I VERY much think not Sir.
I would also suggest that leading anyone to believe such is tantamount to negligence on your part.

Your product may well be ok, so are many other designs in the right conditions.

Technique.. is the main key..
 
Re: Dare I say it, the \"A\" word ... Anchor advice ....

Yo Roberto, thanks for the link to my site... I have researched this for years in attempt to get some money.
The fact it is based on a car engine and chain, and is a tad heavy should not concern you.
I have independent reports from users of it being good in my grandmas garden.
/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
 
Re: Dare I say it, the \"A\" word ... Anchor advice ....

[ QUOTE ]
Re weed.
I submit that anyone trusting any anhcor in weed is asking for trouble.



[/ QUOTE ]

Erm , I guess thats a lot of folk who sail off the west coast of scotland then. The Imray pilot for Skye suggests that once sailors have managed to anchor in Canna harbour ( notorious for kelp - yet one of the most "recommended" anchorages in the area) they can be entertained by watching everyone elses attempts to get an anchor to dig in. Note my anchoring in weed is not the anchor holding "in" the weed - my rocna cut down through the weed and buried into the sand - I brought the anchor up with a load of weed snagged yet under the weed that had been caught was a blade full of sand under the trapped weed. I would no more hook an anchor into some weed and sleep on that than any other sensible sailor, but the rocna just "digs". Until you have seen it ( and you often can in the clear water up here) you may not believe how well it works.
 
Re: Dare I say it, the \"A\" word ... Anchor advice ....

[ QUOTE ]
Or again. are YOU saying your anchor WILL hold in weed, and the boat and crew will be safe, I VERY much think not Sir.

[/ QUOTE ]

No anchor manufacturer would claim this - however personal recommendations and experiences like those above should testify that certain anchors are better than others in these conditions.

Just as a grapnel or fisherman is good on a rocky bottom, so others are better on other bottoms. I doubt anyone would claim their anchor is perfect on all bottoms, but getting a good 'all rounder' is clearly the important factor (I certainly wouldn't set out knowing I could anchor perfectly on rock and mud but nothing else).

Thanks for all the input guys, very nice to see rounded views and some healthy debate over development and experiences.

I will, of course, let you all know what I decide and why, and no doubt get the critiscm of someone what ever I choose!!

Jonny
 
Re: Dare I say it, the \"A\" word ... Anchor advice ....

Now you've stirred the pot you're leaving the kitchen /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Seriously, I'd be interested to see you choose in the end.
 
Re: Dare I say it, the \"A\" word ... Anchor advice ....

[ QUOTE ]
Now you've stirred the pot you're leaving the kitchen

[/ QUOTE ]

/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

No - I think most people with an opinion to give have submitted their comments and opinions, all of which are valid and appreciated.

I am still interested in what others have to say ...

Of course I'll post my decision (or may PM those interested to save another fierce debate!!)

Jonny
 
Re: Dare I say it, the \"A\" word ... Anchor advice ....

[ QUOTE ]
I therefore submit that the rocna is a case in point.. not bad, good in the right bottom, useless in weed.. same for most of the other types.

TECHNIQUE TECHNIQUE and TECHNIQUE me thinks.
/forums/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

If an anchor digs in easier than another, then even if the holding power was the same, the one that digs in is 'better'.

Technique is irrelevant when the tide turns/wind changes and the CQR etc. comes out - and you are sitting on the shore/getting up at 2 in the morning. Give me an anchor that is the most idiot proof every time - an anchor should set by itself and not need human intervention.
 
Re: Dare I say it, the \"A\" word ... Anchor advice ....

But
THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO PROOF that it does.. a lot of sales bs.. but no PROOF.

A con job..... $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Technique is NOT irrelevent.. it is the B all and end ALL... technique allows for this..

Just cos some fly by night salesman comes along with anecdotal hype dont make it better.....
 
Re: Dare I say it, the \"A\" word ... Anchor advice ....

I certainly agree that technique will affect how an anchor performs, and a good technique can certainly make a poorly designed anchor set. The point is, with the more modern anchors being 'throw and forget' why would you choose to use one which requires careful technique to coax it to set properly?

The magazine tests (which even if you don't believe simulate real life are the best measure we have of unbiased controlled comparison) show this clearly to be the case, where some anchors set immediately and others don't. I believe in the YM test they tried re-setting anchors which didn't hold in order to test them. The fact that under the same conditions some set immediatley and others didn't when the technique applied was consistent proves there is an element of design influencing the anchoring system.

I believe you can make almost any anchor set using the right technique, but why bother when you can choose to buy an anchor that is easy to set in the first place?

At the end of the day, when the wind shifts in the middle of the night and the anchor is pulled out there is no technique to getting it to reset - some will reset themselves and others will drag. At this point having a more modern design which can set itself without technique is surely a bonus over a design which needs careful technique to set??

Jonny
 
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