Débutante 21

[oldharry]

The stern is my only concern at the moment

One isolated area like that is not necessarily bad news. Strip off all round the area, and have a look at the joins to see if the plywood is softening, then if there is damage follow Madhatters instructions. It may equally well be an area of inadequate paint preparation, or an abrasion to the paint coat allowing water underneath.

Looks a nice one - far better than some of the plywood boats I have owned!

 

[Cloona]

dear Madhatter - fantastic news that you have taken on this project - if you search this forum threads under Cloona you will see pics of this boat under sail - I have a full history - feel free to send a message if you want -

she completed the Round the Island race in 2010 in 11 hours 38 mins - but came back with a wobbly keel - beyond me so I part exchanged her in Newhaven -

she is a Mark 1 - sail number 156 - did he not sell you the rig ?

nothing has cheered me up more than the thought of her getting sorted out - don't think there is too much wrong with any of her except the keel bolt -

sails beautifully - seaworthy and gave me back my love of sailing - very snug for a couple and everywhere you go she turns heads -

i am so delighted to see her in good hands -

 

[Madhatter]

dear Madhatter - fantastic news that you have taken on this project - if you search this forum threads under Cloona you will see pics of this boat under sail - I have a full history - feel free to send a message if you want -

she completed the Round the Island race in 2010 in 11 hours 38 mins - but came back with a wobbly keel - beyond me so I part exchanged her in Newhaven -

she is a Mark 1 - sail number 156 - did he not sell you the rig ?

nothing has cheered me up more than the thought of her getting sorted out - don't think there is too much wrong with any of her except the keel bolt -

sails beautifully - seaworthy and gave me back my love of sailing - very snug for a couple and everywhere you go she turns heads -

i am so delighted to see her in good hands -

Cloona, you have made my day finding an ex owner of this lovely little boat (was she called "Cloona ?)All information would be gratefully received (PM on its way)

 

[Seanick]

Thank you Sandeel, I have now got a plan of action thanks to all the contributions from forum members (and a lot of research re materials ).
Still need some confirmation on a few points made :-

Winged rudder spec (Seanick well his partner)

2nd skin on lower section,do I use a layer of fibreglass matting between them if so what type, if so would Carbon Fibre Multi-axial Cloth be better ( seeing as I would be doing it anyway the little extra cost would not be an issue)?.

Would a bow sprit be a sensible addition?

As I sail single handed roller reefing head sail / jib ( WANTED if any going here).

more later

Re winged rudder....I'll take a pic

Re double skin. Thgis was another layer of ply carefully fitted, glued and screwed at 6" centers. Bonded with epoxy. No fibreglass matting.
If you want to sheath the bottom RE200g woven roving is plenty. Use the no sanding method to save hrs of work.

re bowsprit. You need a good (ie flat) main to make a Deb balance to windward. A bowsprit may help the center of effort move fwd a bit if your main is pants.

My final thoughts on the rudder.....I always thought if I ever owned my Deb again, I would fit twin rudders on the transom. The auto pilot - QME windvane and electric, used to struggle. I think they would benefit from the rudder moving aft to add control for less effort.

 

[Cloona]

will hunt around and i hope we still have some of the old papers/history - will pm when i have found them -

- can't say enough good about Debutantes as a design - everything works so well and great fun to sail - like a dinghy amonst the moorings and romps in a a bit of a sea -

as a mark 1 I think she has less ballast than a mk 2 and slips along - would love to see her back in her glory and true to original design -

I have used the roller reefing - just take the boom off the pin and roll then replace and with the light loads of the rig it works great ... I know there are some serious problems with keel and rudder and am happy to let you know everything I am aware of - we pretty much sailed her into the ground but she think she is largely sound around the hull and decks - we always promised purselves a Sixpence style interior but .....

looked after us in the overfalls off St Catherines point in a 6 and well reefed was comfortable in the Solent in a 7 -

the Cloona synidicate included my Dad and brother and we all wish you the very best with her and hope to stay in touch - the sooner she is with you the better -

-

 

[Madhatter]

Thanks Seanick .

Cloona I look forward to you contacting.

I hope to give you all step by step reports and pictures as the work progresses (including the c ock ups ).

I want to keep her as near to spec as possible but I also want to sail her to the best of her abilities even if that means some minor alterations.
I am very concerned about the keels as my mooring is in the Bristol channel and is a harbour swinging one that dries out twice a day ( quite safe unless easterly's then can get a little rough) wondered if encapsulation would be an option ?

 

[oldharry]

Thanks Seanick .

I am very concerned about the keels as my mooring is in the Bristol channel and is a harbour swinging one that dries out twice a day ( quite safe unless easterly's then can get a little rough) wondered if encapsulation would be an option ?

As a means of securing the loose keels? No definitely not. It depends which of the keels is loose. If it is one of the side bilge plates then although they are heavy, removing and replacing the bolts is reasonably straightforward, and makles beefing up the mounts much easier. If it is the central ballast stub, then you have a more difficult job as this is heavy, and will have to be dropped off to get at the securing bolts.

The principle of any structural repair is: if there is a weak point, the sea will soooner or later find it. It is quite often the failure of a minor component - a missing split pin for example - that starts a train of events that leads to loss of the ship and possibly even loss of life. One boat I know of was eventually lost because of an undertightened nut. An extra heave on the spanner, and all would have been well.

 

[Madhatter]

Thanks for that O H ,
I am lead to believe that it is the "wing keels" that are loose so beefing up the mounting area is on my list of to do's.

Planning to pick up later next week if the snow is not a problem

 

[sandeel]

trestles

When I had to remove my bilge keels and work on the underside of the boat I constructed a pair of simple trestles out of 4" x 2" softwood frame with a 1/2" ply skin screwed on front and back to give it rigidity, then some cross braces triangulated to prevent them collapsing like a pack of cards. putting some old carpet between the trestle supports and hull to protect it. Getting the correct trestle and hull profile is fairly easy as the ply hull is 2 flat sheets coming to an apex at the centre so a couple of batons held up to the profile and clamped where they cross at the centre keel will give the angle. the photo shows the state of them when I had to remove the boat several years later they held up extremely well.

 

[Madhatter]

When I had to remove my bilge keels and work on the underside of the boat I constructed a pair of simple trestles out of 4" x 2" softwood frame with a 1/2" ply skin screwed on front and back to give it rigidity, then some cross braces triangulated to prevent them collapsing like a pack of cards. putting some old carpet between the trestle supports and hull to protect it. Getting the correct trestle and hull profile is fairly easy as the ply hull is 2 flat sheets coming to an apex at the centre so a couple of batons held up to the profile and clamped where they cross at the centre keel will give the angle. the photo shows the state of them when I had to remove the boat several years later they held up extremely well.

Thank you Sandeel for long term I will file this idea.

I have already made a portable lifting gantry to keep on my trailer, it has a 3 tons capability as mentioned before I am very independent and always make sure everything I do can be single handed if it has to be.

 

[Seajet]

Sandeel,

I trust you've seen the bit about Mystics on page 3 here ?

I placed a photo', which was later edited out, by the forum I suppose, have replaced it but it probably won't be there long !

Great to see you working on yours.

 

[Madhatter]

It looks like I will have to drop the centre keel, (not phased by this , if I can move a 30 ton railway carriage without rails I'm sure I can drop and move a half ton keel )

 

[Madhatter]

I have had to delay picking up the boat until the snow goes away
Mind you it gives me chance to sort my other one that sank the other day
Busy -busy -busy

 

[Madhatter]

"quote /snip:
My final thoughts on the rudder.....I always thought if I ever owned my Deb again, I would fit twin rudders on the transom. The auto pilot - QME windvane and electric, used to struggle. I think they would benefit from the rudder moving aft to add control for less effort. End"

Interesting concept, twin rudders !! how would one go about that ? does that mean the removal of the existing rudder? as it happens I have a spare rudder in my shed.
Derrick

 

[Madhatter]

Update

Well what can I say, as you may remember I bought this boat before Christmas when all that snow was about and as a consequence of the snow I could not collect it straight away. Also a few things happened to cause a small delay in my time available and January landed on me !!.I contacted the boat yard where it was stored (the seller was away for 3months so was not contactable)to advise of the situation and arrange pick up,boy what an arrogant fellow he was and very unhelpful, but I bit my tongue and explained my situation again but his reply was to say we are charging you for the space in a field (unsecured and open to any body to get to by road) for 3 months at double the cost of their pontoon moorings and £180 to lift on my trailer (not in those exact words but that was the gist of the statement ), well I told him that this was not satisfactory bearing in mind the quoted prices for full serviced moorings were cheaper so I asked for an amended amount + invoice he said OK he will get back to me.
He sure did , with a threat of court action and a few days later the amended invoice not the other way around .
Bearing in mind this poor old boat needed lots spending on her ( that I was willing to do) but the costs he was proposing and my own transport costs ate into my proposed budget I could have bought one in a finished state for less.
Well I have left it on the back burner after telling him to either be more flexible with his costings and attitude or do his worse ( awaiting his reply).
I do hope that this can be sorted as I fear the boat will scrapped if not.
I have since bought another project boat to sail with this coming season (hopefully !!)see another post on these forums .