Currency controls Greece, Q

[sailaboutvic]

Would you also tell me the source of your 'simple facts' and why you think most Greek businesses operate this way?

I know one very small taverna who buys wine packs from the supermarket when their barrels are low. Beer? I can't imagine why they would do that so I'm intrigued to know where your facts come from.

If you have a business VAT number, (which all bars and tavernas in Greece must have as there is no minimum threshold for VAT registration), you can buy beer and spirits either through a wholesale cash and carry or a local distributor far more cheaply than from a supermarket and you get a proper VAT invoice. (You can't use a normal shop receipt to reclaim input VAT in Greece.) So why would local bars buy beer from a supermarket instead of from a wholesaler or distributor as you claim?

And who are all the people I see in the cash and carry paying with their cards? Why do large vans park outside restaurants and bars, why do the driver and assistant carry in crates and then get the proprietor to sign a delivery note?

A local distributor of several Greek beers and soft drinks is a personal friend. Next time I see him I'll quiz him on how many businesses he delivers to and how they pay him to be sure I'm not mistaken but, as far as I'm aware, the normal method nowadays is by bank transfer on monthly invoices.

The wholesale warehouses carry all sorts of goods but not fresh meat or vegetables. These are bought locally which is why Greek food is usually fresh. There is VAT on food so, although they use local butchers or fruiterers, most hotels and restaurants will get proper invoices and will usually pay their bills monthly through card or bank. This is how we pay for the food on our yachts and it's quite normal business practice, just as in the UK.

Ok - this week is different because the banks are shut so suppliers are asking for cash but, over the course of the past six years, all but very small and crooked business owners have moved to payment via the bank for any bills over 500 euro. There are big penalties for not doing so.

A lot of what you report just doesn't agree with my experience so please tell me how many business owners you have discussed this with and when? I know and deal with lots of business owners, including some who have bars and restaurants, and I belong to local trade organisations so I think I have a reasonable insight into the way modern Greek businesses are typically run.

I'm not saying that there is no dishonesty. Of course there is, and it's more prevalent in Greece than in the UK, but I don't think it's anything like as widespread as people like you and Max make out. I know a few dishonest business owners (everyone knows who they are) but I know far more honest ones. And, to be fair, I also knew businesses in the UK that kept two sets of books, one for the taxman and a real set. Petty corruption among small businesses isn't a uniquely Greek problem.

I think a problem with a lot of the people who post here is that they have spent time in little coastal towns where there are lots of small businesses dealing with tourists and they extrapolate what they encounter to think everyone in Greece is the same. People who work with tourists in my experience are often far more corrupt than those who work with Greeks and Greeks will actually tell you that Brits and Germans ask for 'special prices' and are quite open to evading VAT. The only two people who have ever asked me for a lower price without a receipt were foreigners, not Greeks.

According to our local chandler, foreign yacht owners are always looking for a cut price and are often ready to do a deal under the counter. He's happy to oblige them, I must add, but is also quite happy and relieved for us to pay him through the bank with a proper invoice so everything he receives from us is declared.

Melody firstly Chill , take a pill , you end up having an heart attact , after all it only a forum .
Now we all sitting nice and calm and our bloody presser has returned to normal , I shall comment on the last part of you posting .
I alway ask for a better deal when buying anything from a chandler , it dosen t matter if it in Greece England or where we are now in Turkey and 90 % of the time I get get it reduces , let's face it every thing you buy is over priced , and if I don't get a discount I more likely to walk out and go else where , but that doesn't mean I didnt get a receipt , just last winter I got 70 euros knocked off a dinghy , off couse I got an receipt , in case there a problem at a later dated ,

This is one of my concern , unlike us we stay in two so called mini Marina in Greece this year , one of the harbour we went into before we left greece wanted X amount , when I told him he was having a laugh and was about to leave he reduced it so we stayed the concern is he had two book he looked at one then he give me a recept from the other , both looked the same to me , this has got me wondering , or have I just got the wrong end of the stick .

 

[nathanlee]

re avoiding VAT.

I will admit to have engaged in this practice too, to be honest who wouldn't? But that's part of the problem......

It's not my problem. You lot crack on. A bankrupt state is a harmless one. The more the merrier.

 

[Seven Spades]

Greece will have to leave the Euro they don't have a choice. Tp do so the government will take all the Euro's from the banking system to add to its reserves and exchange them for New Drachmas [sp?]. So one minute you might have €10,000 in your account and when the banks re-open you will have 10,000 Drachmas. In theory it won't affect local business but as soon as they float the Drachma is will drop from t official 1:1 to 1:2 so Greeks will fins anything imported is going to cost double.

Tourists will find that it is suddenly the best place in Europe to go on holiday. Greece will find an increase in foreign demand for locally produced goods and that will be the first step to recovery. Then when they run out of money they won't have a problem because they can use this fantastic new system called Quantitive Easing, which is much better than printing money.... and it has an air of respectibility.

 

[Melody]

Melody firstly Chill , take a pill , you end up having an heart attact , after all it only a forum .
Now we all sitting nice and calm and our bloody presser has returned to normal , I shall comment on the last part of you posting .
I alway ask for a better deal when buying anything from a chandler , it dosen t matter if it in Greece England or where we are now in Turkey and 90 % of the time I get get it reduces , let's face it every thing you buy is over priced , and if I don't get a discount I more likely to walk out and go else where , but that doesn't mean I didnt get a receipt , just last winter I got 70 euros knocked off a dinghy , off couse I got an receipt , in case there a problem at a later dated ,

This is one of my concern , unlike us we stay in two so called mini Marina in Greece this year , one of the harbour we went into before we left greece wanted X amount , when I told him he was having a laugh and was about to leave he reduced it so we stayed the concern is he had two book he looked at one then he give me a recept from the other , both looked the same to me , this has got me wondering , or have I just got the wrong end of the stick .

Hi Vic, yes, you are right that I was probably getting too uptight but I get very fed up on behalf of all the honest, hard-working Greeks I know when people on here present all Greeks as dishonest and/or lazy. It isn't true so I try to redress the balance with more accurate information.

When we first came to Greece we spent 3 years living on board and I have to say that my initial impression of Greeks was very much in line with some of those that I object to now. I think it was a combination of a couple of nasty incidents, which most people have had, plus the accumulated 'wisdom' of other long-term liveaboards. Now that I've lived and worked here for almost 15 years I realise that a lot of what we were told was inaccurate, and based on flimsy evidence. That's especially true now. Things have changed so much in the past six years. Now we mix with a much broader section of Greek society than the small bar owners, mechanics, etc. that you tend to meet when you are sailing. I've travelled throughout Greece, not just spent time on the coast, I've got to know the people better and understand the way things work here much more than people who only visit, even if they have been doing it for a long time. I've revised my opinion about Greek people and life and now try to counteract prejudice rather than passing it on.

Asking for a discount is perfectly okay if you get a receipt. Nothing wrong with that. But suggesting that you pay cash with no receipt so the VAT is knocked off is corrupt. Sometimes the same people who complain about Greek corruption indulge in it themselves. By the way, I realised after I posted about the chandler that I perhaps should have made it clear I wasn't referring to Spiros Marmarinos, the main chandler on Aegina who, as far as I'm aware, doesn't indulge in any dubious practices. I've seen several posts on here complaining about his prices but no suggestion he has offered lower prices without a receipt.

The two books you mention that the harbour authority representative had will be for professional and private yachts. Professional yachts may need a proper invoice, so have a different book to record their payment in. Their mooring fees are lower so it sounds to me as if he wrote you an invoice as if you were professional. He could get in trouble for it if he is caught but if it was a one-off the chances of it being found out are low.

Ok, off to chill now. Have paid every outstanding invoice from our Greek account this morning so we have as little cash in it as possible

 

[Davy_S]

Hi Vic, yes, you are right that I was probably getting too uptight but I get very fed up on behalf of all the honest, hard-working Greeks I know when people on here present all Greeks as dishonest and/or lazy. It isn't true so I try to redress the balance with more accurate information.

Melody, I do not try to present all Greeks as dishonest or lazy, a little unfair perhaps?
I would love to see the Greeks do well, I like the Greeks, that's why I live here. If you look at some of my posts, I have been defending the Greeks and attempting to encourage tourists, and dispel myths.
Regarding my posting about some of the practices that take place, I do know what goes on! however, we can ague until the cows come and still not agree, plus a public forum is probably not the best way to do it! Can I suggest that we simply agree to differ in our opinions, and hope that Greece can sort itself out.

 

[Melody]

I wasn't aiming at you in particular, Davy, sorry if you thought that. There are several posts from different people in which claims are made that appear to indicate the majority of Greeks are dishonest. That may not be the intention but that's how they come across.

If you say that some Greeks are dishonest I would totally agree with you. Of course they are. I'd also agree that the level of corruption and dishonesty is much higher in Greece than in the UK. However there are far more honest Greeks than dishonest ones and I think it's important to point that out.

To me it's a bit like a Greek insinuating that the majority people from the UK like to get very drunk and use bad language (and I know Greeks who think this, especially of young people). Of course there are some Brits who get extremely drunk and swear a lot and you'll come across a great many of them in Greece, especially in some areas. The level of drunkenness and bad language is, without question, much higher among Brits than Greeks. However there are far more people from the UK who don't get drunk and use bad language than those who do.

The way a minority of the population behave shouldn't be used to discredit the majority who don't do it.

 

[Davy_S]

I wasn't aiming at you in particular, Davy, sorry if you thought that. There are several posts from different people in which claims are made that appear to indicate the majority of Greeks are dishonest. That may not be the intention but that's how they come across.

No problem Melody! I am going to go and have a beer or three now, I will try and do my bit for the cause. ps, I wont get drunk!