Lucky Duck
Well-Known Member
As far as I am aware the official advice remains to avoid using VHF to resolve potential collision situations.
Crossing with Confidence - John Goode
- Thread starter Topcat47
- Start date
john_morris_uk
Well-Known Member
I must live in a different space time continuum to some people on here.
I've been crossing the channel multiple times per year for over thirty years. I can only remember one or two ships that didn't alter course in accordance with IRPCS. Fishing vessels are another matter....
We've had radar on our own boat for the last twelve years but only just got AIS. Radar doesn't alter your visibility to anyone except a warship! (They being the only vessels that monitor such things...)
1 mile CPA is huge so long as it's not dead ahead of a merchant vessel who's doing 20 knots!
Calling up merchant ships on VHF is very definitely discouraged.
Crossing with confidence is using your eyes and a compass, use AIS and radar as aids to navigation. If you pass a few hundred metres behind a ship; so what? It's not going to reverse course and run you down! If you really and truly think a ship hadn't seen you and you are stand in vessel, try NOT to alter course to PORT. It really pisses off the OOD of a ship if they have seen you and tweaked their course to starboard!
I've been crossing the channel multiple times per year for over thirty years. I can only remember one or two ships that didn't alter course in accordance with IRPCS. Fishing vessels are another matter....
We've had radar on our own boat for the last twelve years but only just got AIS. Radar doesn't alter your visibility to anyone except a warship! (They being the only vessels that monitor such things...)
1 mile CPA is huge so long as it's not dead ahead of a merchant vessel who's doing 20 knots!
Calling up merchant ships on VHF is very definitely discouraged.
Crossing with confidence is using your eyes and a compass, use AIS and radar as aids to navigation. If you pass a few hundred metres behind a ship; so what? It's not going to reverse course and run you down! If you really and truly think a ship hadn't seen you and you are stand in vessel, try NOT to alter course to PORT. It really pisses off the OOD of a ship if they have seen you and tweaked their course to starboard!
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capnsensible
Well-Known Member
My word, me too. Handbearing compass and common sense. Day or night. Its easy.
Those John Goode booklets inspired me as a makee learnee many tides ago and I learnt to put it all into practice. Over and over again.
When I went on my Instructor Assessment course twenty years ago, he was my mentor. I learnt stacks.
I am lucky enough to nix it with big ships nearly every day. I hear them on VHF all the time resolving IRPCS issues. I never need to do that because Im on a nimble bit of plastic, I have a HB compass nearby and its easy.
You have plenty of time on your side, calm wins the day!
Happy sailing. :encouragement:
Uricanejack
Well-Known Member
Never read this particular book but will give a big plus 3 to J Morris and Capt. Sensible
What they say is remarkably sensible. and works
While there are no absolutes. A good rule of thumb. If your going to cross ahead. have at least 1 cable for every knot of speed the other vessel is doing.
Pick the most dangerous one first, Deal with them one at a time.
Drive defensively don't assume you have been seen. Or will be seen.
When you are not comfortable stop or turn away. avoid turning towards. A give way vessel.
If they are in a busy TSS area they will be paying attention. Even so they may be more focused on the other big stuff.
I'd advise not calling just follow the rules, they will.
If you are going to call. Call on VTS monitored channel. Be quick and to the point.
When in busy area they are not usually interested in a friendly conversation.
Offshore different. Kettle of Fish
Listen to VTS Channel, Get used to terminology they use. Use the same terms.
Most of the experienced ones will not make a passing arrangement on 16 or a working channel. (they are not recorded and not ministered by other V/Ls)
"Avoid making VHF passing arrangements outside of the rules" particularly with ESL
When you take action, take it early, make it bold and obvious. not just enough for a min CPA.
If you can avoid a group avoid the whole group.
If you are really in doubt or concerned just stop. "unless you are right in front"
The ships all operate on a much bigger scale than most small boats realise. The norm is using 12 and 24 mile range often the will have detected, planned and acted by about 6 miles away.
Their changes will be more apparent to your eyes. You may be surprised its actually easier to detect at night by sight.
What your eyes can see. Tell you what is happening now. Even the best electronics only tell what has already happened.
Being out and about in poor visibility or fog is a bad idea even with all the modern gadgets. Best avoided if you can.
If for some reason you are. Avoid altering course to port. Unless you are overtaking (How often you going to be doing that in a 30 or 40 ft sailboat)
I know forward of the beam.
Avoid altering towards a vessel or fog signal behind you.
The best thing to do if you hear something big getting close is "stop" or a big alteration I mean 60 or 90 degree Big. Make it really obvious.
The worst thing to do is bunch of small movements are alterations they are very hard to detect. It can take up to three minutes for an ARPA Radar to get an accurate course and speed after a change.
The bigger the change in course or speed the quicker the ship will figure out what you have done and act accordingly.
Lot of small changes he will have trouble figuring out what you are doing.
Like the two posts above said following the rules a hand bearing compass and a pair of eyes is all you need.
It's not hard. Its not dangerous.
Have fun and enjoy the trip.
What they say is remarkably sensible. and works
While there are no absolutes. A good rule of thumb. If your going to cross ahead. have at least 1 cable for every knot of speed the other vessel is doing.
Pick the most dangerous one first, Deal with them one at a time.
Drive defensively don't assume you have been seen. Or will be seen.
When you are not comfortable stop or turn away. avoid turning towards. A give way vessel.
If they are in a busy TSS area they will be paying attention. Even so they may be more focused on the other big stuff.
I'd advise not calling just follow the rules, they will.
If you are going to call. Call on VTS monitored channel. Be quick and to the point.
When in busy area they are not usually interested in a friendly conversation.
Offshore different. Kettle of Fish
Listen to VTS Channel, Get used to terminology they use. Use the same terms.
Most of the experienced ones will not make a passing arrangement on 16 or a working channel. (they are not recorded and not ministered by other V/Ls)
"Avoid making VHF passing arrangements outside of the rules" particularly with ESL
When you take action, take it early, make it bold and obvious. not just enough for a min CPA.
If you can avoid a group avoid the whole group.
If you are really in doubt or concerned just stop. "unless you are right in front"
The ships all operate on a much bigger scale than most small boats realise. The norm is using 12 and 24 mile range often the will have detected, planned and acted by about 6 miles away.
Their changes will be more apparent to your eyes. You may be surprised its actually easier to detect at night by sight.
What your eyes can see. Tell you what is happening now. Even the best electronics only tell what has already happened.
Being out and about in poor visibility or fog is a bad idea even with all the modern gadgets. Best avoided if you can.
If for some reason you are. Avoid altering course to port. Unless you are overtaking (How often you going to be doing that in a 30 or 40 ft sailboat)
I know forward of the beam.
Avoid altering towards a vessel or fog signal behind you.
The best thing to do if you hear something big getting close is "stop" or a big alteration I mean 60 or 90 degree Big. Make it really obvious.
The worst thing to do is bunch of small movements are alterations they are very hard to detect. It can take up to three minutes for an ARPA Radar to get an accurate course and speed after a change.
The bigger the change in course or speed the quicker the ship will figure out what you have done and act accordingly.
Lot of small changes he will have trouble figuring out what you are doing.
Like the two posts above said following the rules a hand bearing compass and a pair of eyes is all you need.
It's not hard. Its not dangerous.
Have fun and enjoy the trip.
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Topcat47
Well-Known Member
I'm not so sure about the "never alter to port" statement. Traffic separation schemes direct vessels going up and down channel into different lanes. At some point you're going to encounter ships going the "other way" and turning to port is what brings you on course for their stern. Of course you can always do a 270 or so, i suppose.
john_morris_uk
Well-Known Member
I wrote 'TRY.' To avoid turning to Port.
TSS and the 'shall not impede' rule are special cases but even in a TSS I don't believe altering to port is helpful. Slow down or stop and allow the ship to pass is a good way to 'not impede'. If the ship can alter a few degrees to open up the CPA, they will often still do this, even in a TSS. The alteration hasn't impeded them but it's often hard to detect from a small boat without AIS.
In open waters and you are the stand on vessel, and having stood on until it's OBVIOUS that the vessel isn't going to alter to avoid you (and we are talking about the last mile or two of seperation here, not some whimsical thoughts that the ship 'may not have seen me when it's still six miles away) then may I strongly suggest that the safest course is a large alteration to starboard. Reverse your course or stop if necessary, but DON'T turn to Port as you are potentially making the situation much worse. If the OOD wakes up and sees you his reaction will be to turn to starboard and if you are turning v to port, not only are you now in a head on collision situation, but the closing speed is increased.
The reason the rules don't have 'never turn to port' written into them in black and white is that there may (very occasionally) be other navigational reasons why a turn to starboard would be even more problematic.
All IMHO but pretty standard stuff in terms of applying IRPCS...
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Topcat47
Well-Known Member
I'm definitely going to have to think this one through although "sailing away" is always an option. Even with a hand bearing compass, it's not apparent that an approaching larger vessel is NOT on a converging course until it is quite close, at least in terms of its ability to alter course and avoid a small vessel (me and my boat). My normal reaction is to turn away and sail a parallel but reciprocal course until the vessel has passed.
In this discussion, my assumption has always been that I am crossing the path of the approaching vessel at something like 90 degrees, the thread did refer to crossing the channel. in cases where the angle of approach is much less, then I appreciate the need for the "turn to Stbd".
In this discussion, my assumption has always been that I am crossing the path of the approaching vessel at something like 90 degrees, the thread did refer to crossing the channel. in cases where the angle of approach is much less, then I appreciate the need for the "turn to Stbd".
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Babylon
Well-Known Member
I bow down (pun intended) to the advice and experience of the masters, as I've only done the return crossing five or so times, but would welcome some elaboration.
Its standard for fast-moving behemoths to resolve IRPCS issues between themselves using the VHF, but its discouraged for leisure vessels the size of two sofas doing a quarter of their speed to use the VHF to (i) altert the big boys that they're actually there and crossing, and (ii) ask, for example, whether the circa 400m CPA is ahead or astern of them?
I'm not talking about two or three well-spaced ships at a 90deg angle to one's course, none of which presents any problem that can't be resolved by a temporary slowing down or early alteration of course, but a succession of several tightly-packed ships each time just east of the Off Casquets TSS coming up at relative angles of 50deg (my CTS 030, they're spilling out the TSS at 080). In this case, slowing or altering to STBD for one on a direct collision-course puts you into an immediate CC with the one you'd thought you'd clear, etc. And all this before you know what arrangements they've just made between themselves for any course alternations?
Its no doubt easier with crew - one monitoring the AIS plotter, one with the HB compass, etc.
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GHA
Well-Known Member
It may occur but is frowned upon by the MCA.
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&s...EB7-rs8EimA1661Bg&sig2=FQ7Iq-cc46YFMMnsSZzD-w
Babylon
Well-Known Member
Very useful that, and I stand fully corrected and better informed by both this document and the expertise offered in this thread.
However I don't recall any such clear guidance being given to students on the RYA one-day DSC VHF course I attended ten years ago, nor on my day-skipper and yachtmaster theory courses at roughly the same time. Perhaps this needs to be properly addressed in the training material?
On a slightly different note, whilst my AIS-fed Standard Horizon CP300 chart-plotter shows the CPA etc of any given selected ship transmitting AIS data, it lacks the ability to graphically project our respective tracks, and I therefore cannot rely on it in my assessment of whether I'm likely to pass ahead or astern. (That requires me to spend time back in the cockpit with a HB compass, and to confidently ascertain this is often only possible once I'm much closer to the ships that concern me!) Do they all do this, or do more expensive AIS-enabled plotters display this key information graphically?
doug748
Well-Known Member
As far as I am aware the only cockpit mount, class B, transponder showing if a target will be passing ahead or behind is the Vesper:
http://www.mesltd.co.uk/vesper-marine-wmx850-watchmate-class-transponder-p-14153.html
Which is a great shame as they are nearly 800 quid. I need one, but am stilled by the fear of spending so much money.
I could never find the time to get on the VHF to iffy targets, I salute your organisation.
With a close crossing situation the change in bearing is pretty slow at first. So, as in cricket, I do watch the ball right on to the bat, it can be uncomfortable. Only once or twice have I needed to make urgent adjustments.
john_morris_uk
Well-Known Member
Exactly. I on my phone (away sailing) so a longer explanation/comment is challenging. I tend to use AIS as a check as to what I am seeing. A ship coming into view might be classed as a 'possible threat/problem'. The AIS tells me if I need to keep a close eye on it or not. Quite often, the AIS says the CPA is big enough not to worry about things a long time before any change in bearing is obvious.
If there's a small CPA and I'm stand on vessel, then I just stand on and monitor. As mentioned before, I can only think of a couple of times a large ship hasn't complied with IRPCS in a timely and seamanlike manner in the English Channel or open waters.
I regret that some ferries and ships in the Med need watching with care.
Cal Mac have a bit of a reputation as well, although they might argue that they are often in confined waters. I heard a rumour that one Cal Mac Captain is in trouble for failing to comply with IRPCS when meeting a warship...
RobF
Well-Known Member
More expensive ones can show targets which are getting too close. I've got a Garmin GPS555 (not exactly an expensive model) which shows the tracks of AIS vessels. The colour of the vessels changes to red if they exceed user defined thresholds (proximity in distance or time)
Uricanejack
Well-Known Member
Quite the opposite of both my personal experience, sailing in Scotland, traveling with Cal Mac and reputation I have heard regarding Cal Mac.
If anything they are one of the least high pressure, schedule driven, ferry operators in the UK.
Do you have a specific reported incident in mind to which you can refer? or just gossip?
I am not sure if Royal Navy Commanders insist on personal involvement in routine collision avoidance.
But I doubt it would be Standard Operating Practice for the Master to be involved in all of them on a Cal Mac ferry generally leaving it to the OOW.
I would be very surprised if Company S.O.P did not require compliance along with Master's Standing Orders.
If an OOW were to make a poor decision
I would have thought Cal Mac as a reputedly safety conscious operator would investigate and treat as a learning opportunity rather than a summary execution.
The Post commenting on the Ceuta Ferry was referring to his own personal experience.
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richgiddens
Well-Known Member
More generally, re John Goode and the now sadly closed Southern Sailing, did my DS Pract with them with a guy called Jim Murrison; one of the most enjoyable weeks I've spent on a boat. Not least learning about crew welfare and how to treat people on a boat. Hope Jim enjoyed the bottle of Irish we bought him! I also bought and still refer to all the publications
