Crisis, help urgently needed.

[pvb]

All the comment about insurance is missing an important fact. This is a houseboat that has gone nowhere since it arrived in Fleetwood. It was not going to sea, it was not going to collide with anyone else's boat, it was just sitting in one place minding its own business. It is fairly easy to see why the owners did not see a need to insure it, at least until they were ready to move it. I wonder how many houseboats are insured against seagoing risks?

My house has gone nowhere since it arrived, but it's still an asset which I believe should be insured.

And "seagoing risks" are irrelevant; basic insurance is a necessity (and usually a condition of mooring contracts).

 

[Graham_Wright]

Very gratifying to receive such a large response.

I took yesterday off work (own boss but it makes it worse actually!) and we travelled up from Gloucestershire on Sunday.
The sight is heartbreaking. My son has not had a fantastic life. Although industrious and intelligent, his life has not been financially rewarding due to his own inability to manage his affairs (generally down to his marriage consequences).

His purchase of Pat Campbell was a way out and forward providing him not only with a home but a business opportunity.

however, caveat emptor rules and he took a chance.

The boat can only be insured third party without a survey. Although he commissioned a "walk through" survey which was generally good, he needs to slip her for a full one. To slip her requires a slip ( mentioned in previous posts) and the means to get her there. I have posted about the engine which is sound (er - was!) but the gearbox has a problem we are (were!) in the middle of rectifying. As my son still owes friends for money borrowed, he has to juggle time between penny earning and boat visits.

That's the history.

When my wife and I arrived at the boat, it was a heart-breaking sight. She was sitting on the bottom with water halfway up the wheelhouse. At low water the previous day around 0900 the fire brigade attended and had started to pump out. (This was an anti-pollution exercise at no cost). They attended again at the next low tide (aided by the Harbour Authority who lowered the dock level substantially). However, they made no impact on the interior flood levels and gave up.

The next morning,at low water, I dived inside the fish hold (at 73 this took a lot of fatherly love!). The visibility was about six inches but, fortunately, there was very little floating debris. Unbelievably, I soon came across a hole, rectangular, about six inches by one a half inches. On the next dive, I hammered in some wooden wedges. (Wood floats and if you let go, they go and I only have two hands - torch, wedge, hammer, and one to hang on makes four!).

A whip round from the surrounding pump hire establishments eventually sourced five submersible pumps all around 2 inches.

To cut a long, harrowing story short, they really made no discernible difference. This was probably due to the fact that the Harbour Authority had declined to lower the dock level as much as the day before thus exposing water ingress opportunities normally well above the water line.

There should be four water-tight compartments on the vessel leading to the hope that they could be evacuated individually. However, due to the previous lack of care, the integrity is questionable.

The fire brigade used a venturi pump but didn't seem to know the ratio of pump-in to suck-out. Thus, although the output looked impressive, I wonder.

Next step is to source a high volume submersible pump (or groups thereof) and try again. A petrol or diesel pump is difficult due to having to remove it before the water level rises. However, the small petrol one we had on the after deck was impressive. The dockside is limited to a two tonne load thus prohibiting heavy deliveries. There is available around 16Kw of electrical power on the other hand.

As my air tanks were approaching empty (and out of date) there is at least a week before I can attend again. Prior to that, I need to invent a means to close the one hole I found more effectively. (Bear in mind that access from the outside of the hull is impossible for legal and H&S reasons). I have in mind a "Sunbrella"?) type of device rectangular rather than round that I can push through from inside and draw back outside. Water pressure then is working for rather than against. The difficulty of working whilst floating will be understood by those divers amongst us.

I also need to establish some sort of location system to help navigate round the underwater murk. Underwater lead lights sufficiently bright to be visible from around ten feet would be ideal. Finding my way round by touch was not the greatest experience. (Having a surface dive buddy (the wife) who fed out my safety line as I gave the three tugs "pull me back" signal until she let go of the end, was not the best experience - the divorce is imminent!).

Another thought was a high intensity underwater light that could be lowered outside the hull and slowly traversed whilst observing from inside might help to detect any other holes.

I will now read the rest of the posts and agin - thanks for the support.

 

[Graham_Wright]

Pat C picture

View attachment 31276

Did it work?

Yes.

 

[pvb]

View attachment 31276

Did it work?

Yes.

Oh dear! Do be very careful.

 

[Graham_Wright]

Might be worth phoning Blackpool Area Divers, contact details give address couple of miles south of Fleetwood:

Blackpool Area Divers, 32 Beechwood Drive, Thornton-Cleveleys, FY5 5EJ - 01253 869188

Best of luck with refloating...

Passed on to son - thanks.

 

[Graham_Wright]

I've seen a hole patched with ply and expanding foam, which loves the wet, not sure if it can be used under the water though. Is the harbour liable for their protruding ironwork?

We could see no signs of rubbing marks on the dockside.

 

[z1ppy]

thanks for the updates and real fartherly love.!! im ignoring all the other infighting here about rights and wrongs and just hoping that A) you all stay safe and b) you find a way of recovering her.

Good luck. i cant offer any practical advise or support as this is way out of my league but rest assured i am thinking of you!

 

[Graham_Wright]

You deserve what you get
Should not be afloat un insured at least 3 rd party

So what help would that have been?

 

[Graham_Wright]

Not a lawyer and it might be worthwhile you contacting one. If your son has no 3rd party insurance, then he could find himself being landed with a very large bill for pollution control and any other damage that the harbour decides that his boat has caused. In your son's place, I would gather photos and other evidence that the state of the harbour caused the sinking, which might give him some basis for a counter-claim.

Good luck salvaging the boat.

His assets are what you see in the picture. Suing would not be very productive!

 

[Graham_Wright]

The boat may have been uninsured against loss, but that may not mean that there was no third party cover. Did the OP say that? In any event criticism is unhelpful. The OP mentioned that his son was a lifeboatman. I hope that if he contacts the Blackpool lifeboat crew they will help him, possibly on a personal basis if this is something they cannot do officially.

The owner of the boat has had really bad luck, and I hope his next news is better.

Yes, they did attend in the dock but there are problems. Once the water level drop they cannot attend a service (ok through the lock but not down the channel). They also have been unable to provide a pump for the same reason.

 

[Graham_Wright]

I've watched the YouTube presentation of "Andromeda" and I reckon that, sadly, if it's been submerged there'll simply be nothing worth salvaging. It was obviously a "dream" project, as the concept of using it as a tripper boat and floating B&B on Loch Ness seems fanciful, to say the least. What I can't understand. like others, is how anyone could buy something like that and not insure it. I don't know what its "value" is, but comprehensive insurance on my boat (with 85K agreed value) is only about £300. I hope there's a happy resolution to this sad tale, and that the ABP people take a sympathetic attitude to the costs of pollution containment and wreck removal.

Read my subsequent post.

 

[maby]

Hmmm, very sorry to see that!

Unfortunately, being in the marina basin is going to limit their freedom to drop the water level, isn't it? I guess they need to keep a good 2m of water in there to protect the other boats on the pontoons. Good luck to you - but don't take risks - don't leave him feeling guilty for the rest of his life 'cos you drowned yourself trying to sort out his sunken boat!

 

[Graham_Wright]

Do you think Fleetwood Haven Marina is negligent? In what way?

Subsequent to my visit, I think it unlikely. The harbour side wall is not fantastic and scheduled for repair (but no funds available). The mooring is not cheap considering the state of this. So there may be some moral obligation to assist. It is worth adding that the harbour officials are being very helpful. There is one boat there (although afloat) that the owner has abandoned. Mark is too morally responsible to do that but they do realise that it is in everyone's interest to help with refloating.

The lock keeper has suggested moving her out of the dock (once afloat of course!) and beaching her at high water springs in the river mouth. There are several precedents and there is not cost. Access to the outside of the hull to replace fractured planks would then be possible. Mark has always realised that this is top priority but the reasons delaying it are obvious.

 

[MYStargazer]

This is heartbreaking.

It won't help much, but at least everyone is safe and sound. That is the key issue. Even if your son just walks away, it's not the end of the world and he can start from scratch.

Harbour authorities owe a duty of care to harbour and berth users. They owe 'common law' duties as well as contractual duties if your son was paying them directly for the berth. Go to your local main library. Ask to do some research using Halsbury's Laws - and get a librarian to help you find the right volume (they may know how to use them properly, too). The harbour authority would be wasting public money bringing a claim, as your son is what lawyers term a 'man of straw' (most people are unless they own real property outright).

Make sure you photograph, photograph and photograph. And make plenty of notes.

It'll all come out in the wash in the end.

 

[Rivers & creeks]

I think you're going to need full salvage flotation bags as well as the pumps, there are so many (normally) above the waterline holes that water will just poor in through. Best wishes to you and your son, it maybe that in all honesty the best way is for him to walk away, it will them become the harbour authorities problem as he has no assets to pay for a salvage and the boat will not be worth anything after it's lifted in any case. As others have said, don't add your own life to the bill for this sad event, diving in a fish hold with six inches of visibility - would you let someone else do that?

 

[Talulah]

Suggestion.
If the hole is toward the forward end of the boat can you get a crane to raise the forward end only.
(Requiring a smaller crane than a total lift.)
You may then be able to raise the one end sufficiently to patch the hole and then start pumping and closing water tight doors. One section at a time.

 

[Graham_Wright]

Superstructure showing means about twenty feet depth. Can the water level can be lowered sufficiently to patch and pump out, are there other vessels which would have to take the ground, yachts alongside pontoons and bigger vessels. All would have to be happy in maybe ten feet of water to get her deck clear. Flotation bags or a crane require strops under the hull, maybe possible for a diver but not nice work especially in soft mud. If she's upright there may be access to the keel to get strops through, but is she stable? There won't be enough water for bags to work, so it has to be a crane. The strops would need rigging first then a day with a crane slowly lifting/pumping/draining until she's up enough to be dealt with at leisure. Big expensive crane, so the best bet would be lowering the water level in the dock.

Nice to have a constructive post within the mud-slinging!

The water was lowered to a height causing no concern to any other floating vessels in the dock. The museum boat astern took the ground but she is big and flat bottomed. The Port Manager noticed a little twisting to the pontoons which, although not serious, has caused the lock keeper to add another 200 mm to his minimum depth. It doesn't sound a lot but it makes a big difference in terms of flooding.

She displaces 64 tons so flotation bags would have to be massive and slings under the hull would probably be impossible.

The dockside weight limit of 2 tons precludes cranes. She is reasonably stable but the shore lines have torn off the stern bollards (which were ready to go anyway and high on the list for replacement).

 

[clyst]

I think you're going to need full salvage flotation bags as well as the pumps, there are so many (normally) above the waterline holes that water will just poor in through. Best wishes to you and your son, it maybe that in all honesty the best way is for him to walk away, it will them become the harbour authorities problem as he has no assets to pay for a salvage and the boat will not be worth anything after it's lifted in any case. As others have said, don't add your own life to the bill for this sad event, diving in a fish hold with six inches of visibility - would you let someone else do that?

Are you serious ?. Just walk away and let others be responsible for the work and expenditure ?? very considerate !! And the panel has slated Daydreamer for stating reality !! I really despair .

 

[Lakesailor]

I think you need to encourage your son to view the long game.
Even if you float the boat again and manage to beach her and repair the damage, will he be even further in debt?
What chance is there that the boat will ever be refurbished and become a home for him?
If he didn't really have the funds before, this will surely, be the end of the project.

Are there alternatives? Could he gift the boat to someone who has more funds available to effect a re-floatation? It's the end of his dream either way.

 

[maby]

I think you need to encourage your son to view the long game.
Even if you float the boat again and manage to beach her and repair the damage, will he be even further in debt?
What chance is there that the boat will ever be refurbished and become a home for him?
If he didn't really have the funds before, this will surely, be the end of the project.

Are there alternatives? Could he gift the boat to someone who has more funds available to effect a re-floatation? It's the end of his dream either way.

Alternatively, contact a TV channel and see if they will commission a series of programmes with Tom Cunliff monitoring his progress - he might be able to turn it into a profit making exercise!