Cradle or stands for a bilge keeler

[sur-la-mer]

Maybe the word 'stands' means something different where you are ?

A stand.

A piece of wood.

Hope that helps.

I'm definitely trying to work it out with a stand (aka cradle) or stands (aka props).

 

[Refueler]

That's enough for me ... Bye.

I really wish you best of luck.

 

[sur-la-mer]

It would help if people who didn't, just said, "I don't know". Or, "I have not thought about that before".

Look at the type of cradle above. Why can't a bilge keeler be dropped into it, supported, perhaps, by a t-stand front and rear? Blocks where necessary as a "belt" to the "braces"?

I don't care if it's "not the done thing", I'm just interested in why technically it can or can't. If there's a technical objection, eg too much weight on the pads might cause deflection, or keels would pull down if not supported, then I'd consider it and accept it, if it was true.

In my case, small, old GRP boat, built like a brick[house extension], survived bouncing up and down on its keels for 40 plus years ... I can't see the problem.

 

[Refueler]

NOBODY IS SAYING IT IS NOT POSSIBLE TO USE A CRADLE !!!!!!!!

What is being said generally - is that its usually unnecessary due to the fact a BK boat stands on its own without need of tranverse support .....................

But remove the keels and YES - you will need to support the boat another way instead of standing on its keels.

Boy oh Boy ....... and to think that thousands of bat owners have survived lifting / moving / playing around with BK boats without all this ???????

 

[lw395]

The 'cradle' in the picture looks primarily designed to stop a fin keel boat falling over when the keel is taking most of the weight.

Boatyards tend to do things their way.
If that doesn't suit you, choose a different yard.
Discuss what you want to do before getting the boat lifted.
Some race boats spend a lot of time fully supported by cradles, with the keel off the ground.
But these are serious made to measure cradles.

Normally, to sort the bottoms of the keels, people just get the boat put on thick lumps of timber. Lift the keel on a jack to move the timber between working on the keels in sections.

 

[Refueler]

The 'cradle' in the picture looks primarily designed to stop a fin keel boat falling over when the keel is taking most of the weight.

Boatyards tend to do things their way.
If that doesn't suit you, choose a different yard.
Discuss what you want to do before getting the boat lifted.
Some race boats spend a lot of time fully supported by cradles, with the keel off the ground.
But these are serious made to measure cradles.

Normally, to sort the bottoms of the keels, people just get the boat put on thick lumps of timber. Lift the keel on a jack to move the timber between working on the keels in sections.

As I and others have said all along ...

 

[Praxinoscope]

As I said in my post #18 the choice of cradle or no cradle is up to sur-la- mer, just that with 50 years of mucking abou with boats, bilge and long keel, IMHO it seems an un-necessary expense to think about a cradle for a bilge keeler unless considering dropping the keels, but even then it can be done without a cradle.
The OP did ask for comments from those who have experience of cradles, my last boat a long keel design did have a Yacht Leg Co. cradle, but previous bilge keel boats and my present bilge keel boat doesn't and I wouldn't consider a cradle for it or them.
But fine if sur-la-mer is intent on having a cradle it's his money, but just what is the point?
As for letting the bottom of my keels 'rot away' my present boat (bilge keel Sadler25) is now 40 years old and the keels are fine, most of it's life it has been on non drying moorings, but is now on a drying mooring and they are not 'rotting away'.

 

[sur-la-mer]

I've noticed on more than one topic, that people really don't read what has been written before chipping in what they think is being discussed.

a) Don't want to take keels off.
b) Don't need/want to buy cradle. Cradles are free with cost of storage on hard standing.
c) The cradle above was purely illustrative, for the sake of those who could tell the difference between one, a prop, and a block of wood. I thought it was funny but I was defining my terms.
d) People really can't say, "I don't know/I have had no experience, when they don't".
e) Almost every post has been about experience of everything different than what was asked, ie not putting on in a cradle

I was thinking about the flotation value of 2 tons of cast iron (joke) and the differences in the stresses between supporting them in the water, and supporting them in the air, and came to the conclusion that it would be almost identical. Of course, in the water, the 3 tons load is spread over the entire length of the boat, whereas on land it would just be on the areas where the pads are.

But there we have a Centaur sitting in less than one, without apparent harmful deflection. Thank you, guardian. Back of a napkin maths, would suggest a stand would be even safer.

We're slowly getting there.

I think the real question - apart from attitudes - is of how it gets in there, eg if they use a fork lift, or big crane, or some other kind of loader, eg whether the keels interfere with the props on the way in.

Finally, when I took a wire wheel to the keels chunks were flaking off the edges, so perhaps another 10 years and previous owners' neglect at anti-fouling makes a difference? To get paint to stick, I'm going to have to take them back to healthy bare metal all round.

Then a love of finesse kicks in.

 

[lw395]

I've noticed on more than one topic, that people really don't read what has been written before chipping in what they think is being discussed.

a) Don't want to take keels off.
b) Don't need/want to buy cradle. Cradles are free with cost of storage on hard standing.
....

The type of cradle you get 'free' i.e. included in the hardstanding service, is never going to be the type of cradle that allows the bottom of the keel(s) to be clear of the ground or supports, whatever boat you have.
You don't get a cradle like this boat has:
Corby 41.5 for sale UK, Corby boats for sale, Corby used boat sales, Corby Sailing Yachts For Sale 1997 Corby 41.5 - Apollo Duck
in a standard boatyard winter deal.

I agree that it's worth paying some attention to the underside of an iron keel. I've done it in two ways. By shifting blocks under the keel using jacks etc and by removing the keel and doing a full-on epoxy job.

 

[Caraway]

It would help if people who didn't, just said, "I don't know". Or, "I have not thought about that before".

I've noticed on more than one topic, that people really don't read what has been written before chipping in what they think is being discussed.

Maybe you don't quite grasp how forums work. Once you have posted it's out of your hands. Others will post what the feel they want to.

 

[Refueler]

Maybe you don't quite grasp how forums work. Once you have posted it's out of your hands. Others will post what the feel they want to.

Also alternatives that they feel may be better.

Forums are based on the idea of collective thought, suggestions, questions and experience. A pot of continuous soup that people add to ... stirring it along.

I started a thread on an item I am well versed in - Sestrel Compass ... I knew I was wasting time advising not to tell me to give it to Service Agent ... I also knew that it was most likely the compass would be mistaken for a later version ... but did I get upset when that happened ? No because its a forum and each person was right in their minds and also if the item had been what they believed it to be. I politely corrected that and carried on.

 

[penberth3]

Also alternatives that they feel may be better.

Forums are based on the idea of collective thought, suggestions, questions and experience. A pot of continuous soup that people add to ... stirring it along.

I started a thread on an item I am well versed in - Sestrel Compass ... I knew I was wasting time advising not to tell me to give it to Service Agent ... I also knew that it was most likely the compass would be mistaken for a later version ... but did I get upset when that happened ? No because its a forum and each person was right in their minds and also if the item had been what they believed it to be. I politely corrected that and carried on.

I still remember the advice for school/college exams; 1. Read the question. 2. Answer the question you've been asked.

 

[[159032]]

This is a forum. We are not being marked. We don't expect a 'pass'. We are adults and have reached a stage in life when we have experience and knowledge which others may want to hear.

Sur-la-mer, it seems, does not.

 

[sur-la-mer]

I agree that it's worth paying some attention to the underside of an iron keel. I've done it in two ways. By shifting blocks under the keel using jacks etc and by removing the keel and doing a full-on epoxy job.

Thanks for that last bit.

The sociology of internet forums, I'll pass on a PhD in. Penberth has it right, go to the top of the class! It's actually just politeness. Since when did being on an internet forum give you permission to barf into the middle of someone else's conversation? It's still real life.

If in doubt, ask a question first, to make sure you understand what is being asked and why ... even if only to see if the other has thought it thought. Which I have.


Just out of interest, how many people here work in or run yards, or are perhaps in collusive interests with?

To answer what appear to be a frequent response I'mm getting now, "they are in it to make money", I'll add ... "yes, by providing services, preferably with a cheerful smile". Memories of the now demised automotive industry and trade in this countries ...

I see the stand on the Corby 41.5, but I've only got to go up 2' at the very most. An average sized stand for a 25' long keel or fin would do it with room to spare.

 

[[159032]]

I predict you a long and convivial membership of the forum, if your 1st week is anything to go by.

Most people just get by with accepting the way the forum has worked for 20 years, without insisting it work they way they want.
But what do they know?

.

 

[duncan99210]

I see the stand on the Corby 41.5, but I've only got to go up 2' at the very most. An average sized stand for a 25' long keel or fin would do it with room to spare.

The problem is that the stands you refer to are not stands in the way the that the Corby stand is. They’re all designed as a framework of props to keep the boat upright with the majority of the weight taken on the keel. If you try using one to suspend your bilge keels in the air, as you want, the they become unsafe as it exceeds their design parameters by transferring the total weight of the boat onto the props. There’s also the problem of identifying strong points in the hull which will take the point loading of the total boat weight without any relief from the keel(s).
So, the boat yard could supply you with a custom made cradle to lift you keels clear of the ground but it’ll come at a cost. What they can’t do is simply place your boat in one of their standard keel boat cradles as you want. It’d be unsafe and will certainly lie outside their safe working practices.
As others have said, you best course of action is to look at either making a cradle yourself (and satisfying the yard as to it’s safety) or get the yard to reposition your boat onto some sleepers placed underneath the keels. Your call.

 

[Just_sayin']

I predict you a long and convivial membership of the forum, if your 1st week is anything to go by.

Nothing personal, nor even political, but shame it didn't kill Boris and/or Cummings just to bring to people's awareness just how dangerous it really was.

He has a nice turn of phrase.

 

[sur-la-mer]

The picture above was just a random example for the sake of the joke. I was thinking more of ones for big motorboats with planing hulls.

Yes, I considered the potential theories of what you are saying, thank you, but, as I wrote above, the company who designed and had made their stands said it was possible (with an additional t-support in the centre), so they remain just abstract theories.

I was attempting to find someone who'd actually done it. Or done the maths. Not just reasons why not to.

Looking at the Centaur above, you've got, what, 5 tons sitting happily on a 2 x 30mm wide strip, perhaps 2m long (?). Ditto, they did have a Centaur without its keels up on a stands (never saw how they went back together).

Now compare that weight and surface area with, say 4 or 6 pads, and 1 or 2 T-bars.

1960s Westerly Lloyds standard GRP ... I'd sign off on any such potential risk.

 

[duncan99210]

The Centuar in the cradle will have the strips placed under the fore and aft bulkheads. That’s how to do it with a cradle like that, as will the tall cradle for Corby: it’s points of contact with the hull will match the strong points in the hull to prevent damage. They’re custom made items, not off the shelf fit any boat ones that the yard will have a stock of for their use.
You might well sign off on the project but the people who actually carry the responsibility in terms of not dumping your yacht onto your neighbours boat will, I suspect, be a bit more wary.

 

[sur-la-mer]

There is an equivalent bulkhead in the fore, two in fact. Not so much in the rear. But the engine's out so there's little weight there.

Thanks for the sincere response though.

Can't see how it could possibly fall sideways. If it was going to, it would deflect straight down but there's no way on earth it would deflect that much.

A new Beneteau may be ... surely not an old Westerly.

He has a nice turn of phrase.

What's that, a red flag to swivelled eyed loons on the forum? Is it relevant in any way? The original post, in its full context, is here, and I stand by. We call it "irony". It's when you say the opposite to what you mean to exaggerate a point.

You got your emphasis on the wrote part, it reads ...

Nothing personal, nor even political, but shame it didn't kill Boris and/or Cummings just to bring to people's awareness just how dangerous it [Covid-19] really was.

Taking comments out of context is a terribly weak move to play.