Philsy
New member
Would uyou be concerned by surface rust which could be blasted off before coating? I'd have the hull inspected by a surveyer, of course.
Thanks again
<hr width=100% size=1>
Thanks again
<hr width=100% size=1>
Cost of fitting out
- Thread starter Philsy
- Start date
richardandtracy
New member
When doing mine, the hull was about one third of the total cost of the boat. Mind, that was 100% home build, so the hull price you've paid could include a bit of profit, making fitting out roughly the hull cost.
Regards
Richard.
<hr width=100% size=1>
Regards
Richard.
<hr width=100% size=1>
claudio
New member
Most steel boats rot from the inside, I'd be concerned at surface rust because if the hull is new and the job was done right in the first place there shouldn't be any at all.
If you're thinking of blasting the outside, don't forget to do the inside as well, and any area that you miss will be prone to rust. Make sure you choose a really dry day or preferably blast under cover in a shed with very low humidity. Prime immediately and before any oxidation begins to show.
Best place to build a rust free steel boat is probably Saudi.
<hr width=100% size=1>
If you're thinking of blasting the outside, don't forget to do the inside as well, and any area that you miss will be prone to rust. Make sure you choose a really dry day or preferably blast under cover in a shed with very low humidity. Prime immediately and before any oxidation begins to show.
Best place to build a rust free steel boat is probably Saudi.
<hr width=100% size=1>
clyst
Well-known member
RCD ??? I'm off then ----a whole new can of worms . Depends when the HULL was built .
Terry
<hr width=100% size=1>
Terry
<hr width=100% size=1>
ongolo
New member
Fitting out a boat is very much like cooking, with identical ingrediants you can make a lousy meal or just a few cents of herbs and a good touch will make it delicious.
Now I have built a 55ft steel boat, a gaff schooner to be precise. I would do it again and it depends very much on the rig how much you going to spend.
One advise, try and build where you live or live with the boat to work on it every day. Going there once a week and unpack tools and wonder where you actually stopped, will never get it finished.
As far as professionally built boats go, I know of two examples where the hulls were absolutely below standards. Here payment is made to the builder on a progress report and percentage completion will get same percentage payment. The one company was busy going bankrupt and employed anybody as a welder as long as he could say "welding rod". The result was, that fairly late it was discovered, that most welding seams were so bad, they had to be opened and rewelded.
By that time the "professional builder" was bankrupt. so there was nobody to sue.
The other case was a motorsailer of 39 foot. It was generally badly made, many places it was just flimsey or unexceptable. For instance, the stem was a hollow 40mm square tubing. So soon it will be filled with water, rust from the inside and when week enough, the bow will split open. No thanks for professinal builders.
My boat has a stem 90x16mm flat bar, can withstand 450 tons of squashing force (+ a safety factor of four) in case I get stuck in pack ice in the Antartica. And I made it and I can vouch for every cm of weld. The fitting out is rustic and cosy ans has lots of space. Installation of plumbing and electronics is really very simple, a new type of stern tube seal I developed along the line was a little more complicated.
If you like to built a gin palace, that might be expensive, a boat that sails is another matter. Especially if you have time and use your head.
It is true that many boats dont get finished, but many times a divorce is involved, or one case I know, 4 guys started it and one by one they dropped away. It was just a case that "it sounded a good idea at the time".
And remember, you dont need all the money on day one, but forget finishing it in one year. Having said that, there was a family by the name of Woolfe in Cape Town. The old man and his two sons built a forty foot boat complete to launching stage in six months, loaded wood, tools and a gen set into the boat and sailed to south america and finished the interior along the way, but it was the old mans 7th boat he built, and by the age of 25 both sons each had built their own boat and the wife of the old man was building her own boat too.
In the end it depends on your motivation, some people practise for a Marathon and run 43km every day for the hell of it, now you try and employ somebody to run for a wage 43km every day. Forget it.
There is another forum under yahoo groups about origami boat building, a method developed by brent swain. They had a discussion recently about complete boat building. Maybe you should read what they have to say. They are actually building boats, but it seems to me here is more theorethical advice available.
For instance, I got two identical Paragon gear boxes 2:1 ( ex speed boat off 300hp V8 engines)in perfect order for BP80,- and to get the exact Deutz engine with counterbalance shaft to reduce vibration I bought a complete tractor (only in Tractors the 912 series has a counter balance shaft), took the engine with 5000 hours, sold the tyres, the gear box, the hydraulics and the front loader and made a small profit, so I got my engine for nothing. At that stage I also had a mercedes engine which I could then sell.
regards ongolo
<hr width=100% size=1>
Now I have built a 55ft steel boat, a gaff schooner to be precise. I would do it again and it depends very much on the rig how much you going to spend.
One advise, try and build where you live or live with the boat to work on it every day. Going there once a week and unpack tools and wonder where you actually stopped, will never get it finished.
As far as professionally built boats go, I know of two examples where the hulls were absolutely below standards. Here payment is made to the builder on a progress report and percentage completion will get same percentage payment. The one company was busy going bankrupt and employed anybody as a welder as long as he could say "welding rod". The result was, that fairly late it was discovered, that most welding seams were so bad, they had to be opened and rewelded.
By that time the "professional builder" was bankrupt. so there was nobody to sue.
The other case was a motorsailer of 39 foot. It was generally badly made, many places it was just flimsey or unexceptable. For instance, the stem was a hollow 40mm square tubing. So soon it will be filled with water, rust from the inside and when week enough, the bow will split open. No thanks for professinal builders.
My boat has a stem 90x16mm flat bar, can withstand 450 tons of squashing force (+ a safety factor of four) in case I get stuck in pack ice in the Antartica. And I made it and I can vouch for every cm of weld. The fitting out is rustic and cosy ans has lots of space. Installation of plumbing and electronics is really very simple, a new type of stern tube seal I developed along the line was a little more complicated.
If you like to built a gin palace, that might be expensive, a boat that sails is another matter. Especially if you have time and use your head.
It is true that many boats dont get finished, but many times a divorce is involved, or one case I know, 4 guys started it and one by one they dropped away. It was just a case that "it sounded a good idea at the time".
And remember, you dont need all the money on day one, but forget finishing it in one year. Having said that, there was a family by the name of Woolfe in Cape Town. The old man and his two sons built a forty foot boat complete to launching stage in six months, loaded wood, tools and a gen set into the boat and sailed to south america and finished the interior along the way, but it was the old mans 7th boat he built, and by the age of 25 both sons each had built their own boat and the wife of the old man was building her own boat too.
In the end it depends on your motivation, some people practise for a Marathon and run 43km every day for the hell of it, now you try and employ somebody to run for a wage 43km every day. Forget it.
There is another forum under yahoo groups about origami boat building, a method developed by brent swain. They had a discussion recently about complete boat building. Maybe you should read what they have to say. They are actually building boats, but it seems to me here is more theorethical advice available.
For instance, I got two identical Paragon gear boxes 2:1 ( ex speed boat off 300hp V8 engines)in perfect order for BP80,- and to get the exact Deutz engine with counterbalance shaft to reduce vibration I bought a complete tractor (only in Tractors the 912 series has a counter balance shaft), took the engine with 5000 hours, sold the tyres, the gear box, the hydraulics and the front loader and made a small profit, so I got my engine for nothing. At that stage I also had a mercedes engine which I could then sell.
regards ongolo
<hr width=100% size=1>
poter
Active member
Yep Saudi is good, just leave in the desert for 6 months and it will be sandblasted for free.
Seriously...
If the hull was built by a good engineer, really the only thing to check would be the welds. Try chatting up a weld inspector from one of the local yards & have a word with him, get all the info. you can.
I have found most of the guys in the local yards are more than happy to give advice & you may even get him down to have a look at the hull for you
The fitting out is really a very difficult question but based on experience Project Managing several construction jobs, you will also have to put in a considerable amount of your own labour hours to perform management/engineering functions, such as: tying down all the suppliers costs, arranging transport, getting tools, plant, delivery schedules, setting up construction plans, cash flow & accounting, waste disposal, etc. etc
And these are only a few of the engineering functions.
So just the actual fitting out labour is probably only 50% of the job. This is one area where most projects go wrong & costs escalate
poter.
<hr width=100% size=1>
Seriously...
If the hull was built by a good engineer, really the only thing to check would be the welds. Try chatting up a weld inspector from one of the local yards & have a word with him, get all the info. you can.
I have found most of the guys in the local yards are more than happy to give advice & you may even get him down to have a look at the hull for you
The fitting out is really a very difficult question but based on experience Project Managing several construction jobs, you will also have to put in a considerable amount of your own labour hours to perform management/engineering functions, such as: tying down all the suppliers costs, arranging transport, getting tools, plant, delivery schedules, setting up construction plans, cash flow & accounting, waste disposal, etc. etc
And these are only a few of the engineering functions.
So just the actual fitting out labour is probably only 50% of the job. This is one area where most projects go wrong & costs escalate
poter.
<hr width=100% size=1>
clyst
Well-known member
EH ???
I'm sure you are trying to be helpful and I don't wish to appear rude but what exactly are you trying to say ??
I'm sure you are trying to be helpful and I don't wish to appear rude but what exactly are you trying to say ??
Blue_Blazes
New member
I like your style Ongolo. You're right, a bad job is it's own reward. If buying an unfinished project, treat it like the proverbial gift horse. Approach it carefully. Talk nicely to it. Then when the owner isn't looking, yank open it's mouth and have a goods look at it's teeth. In other words, a professional inspection or survey might cost a few quid, but could save you a lot of grief.
Bill.
<hr width=100% size=1>One of these days I'll have a boat that WORKS
Bill.
<hr width=100% size=1>One of these days I'll have a boat that WORKS
Mudplugger
New member
Philsy, The variety of comment that has been posted, seems in general to indicate that the proposed course of action borders on insanity. without any knowledge of your level of technical competence, this is almost bound to be the case.... However, if you have the skills to complete the task (and/or access to them) then go for it. but be prepared for a significant outlay on tools, paints, timber, welders, storage, power, scaffolding, et al. Currently in initial stages of doing what you are thinking of, with a Van de Stadt 40. ignoring initial cost of Hull & assorted fittings (engine, Winches, Windows[some], Loo, Timber costs, as per VdS spec. 3k approx. Deck fittings, Cleats, track,cars, Anchor Winch, Hatches, as per Spec. 5k, Internal Foaming above W/Line. 1k. Mast,(51'6'') Boom, Stdg. Rigging & Running Rigging, inc Headsail Furler, Spin.Pole, 7k, Windows (deck Saloon) 2.5k, Galley oven, frig, gas supply. 1k, Steering Gear, 1.5k (2 Posn.) Water H/C. 1k. Upholstery 4k.Electrics 12v/240v. 1.5k. etc, etc, I think the comment on time of about 2.5k hours is about right., By the way this is my second, cos I enjoyed the first one so much. and sails, 5k. total about 40k. best of luck,whatever your decision.
<hr width=100% size=1>Tony W.
<hr width=100% size=1>Tony W.
William_H
Well-known member
If your plan is to get a good boat cheap then forget the idea of building (finishing) a new boat . Buy a used boat and start sailing it. However if you are driven to build a boat for the pleasure of building it yourself then go for it forget the cost and time just enjoy the project.
<hr width=100% size=1>
<hr width=100% size=1>
MainlySteam
New member
If you are after a professional finish as good as a good yard, as you seem to be saying, then you should budget for around 5-6,000 manhours (8,000 if you want towards the best), assuming you are very skilled at boatwork, the GBP40k you mention might get you the rig and deck hardware, and if you want a good interior finish in a steel boat you have to plan on lining the whole lot out (not like a wooden hull which self lines in lockers etc, or fibreglass hull with internal mouldings), and don't forget all the pumps, engine and drive line, steering, upholstery, interior timbers, painting, electrical, instrumentation, radios, etc, etc, etc, then comes the optional extras like tender, outboard, liferaft, etc.
If you want a cheap job, ie make lots of stuff yourself, minimal hardware, etc well just depends how cheap you want it.
My suggestion is if you think the labour is free, then measure the quantities for all the materials, price the rig, engine, painting, insulation, instruments, electrical, etc, etc and then stand back (or collapse if you previously had GBP40k in mind).
John
<hr width=100% size=1>
If you want a cheap job, ie make lots of stuff yourself, minimal hardware, etc well just depends how cheap you want it.
My suggestion is if you think the labour is free, then measure the quantities for all the materials, price the rig, engine, painting, insulation, instruments, electrical, etc, etc and then stand back (or collapse if you previously had GBP40k in mind).
John
<hr width=100% size=1>
ongolo
New member
Well in my case there was another factor, there was no other boat that fitted remotely what I was looking for.
Looking at all the prices in the UK, some items are unbelievable expensive there, for instance the upholstery would cost GBP 400,- for my 11 berth and seating 8.
Maybe you should consider building the boat not in the UK.
The english owners of Mellow Mawk, Nick and Jill did fit out a boat in Cape town, their story was in PBO.
What is the divorce rate in the UK? If it is 30%, then one in three started projects will come to an end anyway.
Go for it, boats dont grow on trees, somebody has to built them.
))
regards ongolo
<hr width=100% size=1>
Looking at all the prices in the UK, some items are unbelievable expensive there, for instance the upholstery would cost GBP 400,- for my 11 berth and seating 8.
Maybe you should consider building the boat not in the UK.
The english owners of Mellow Mawk, Nick and Jill did fit out a boat in Cape town, their story was in PBO.
What is the divorce rate in the UK? If it is 30%, then one in three started projects will come to an end anyway.
Go for it, boats dont grow on trees, somebody has to built them.
))regards ongolo
<hr width=100% size=1>
philmarks
Member
A variety of views here,
For me the fundamental question is - do you want to sail (or motor cruise) OR spend the next 2-3 years working like a dervish on a project which, given your time input required, is unlikely to yield any profit.
Find something that's seagoing, and then refit it as you go. That was my choice. (My Dad did have a Luke 5 tonner in the backyard for 7 yeras whilst he rebuilt her - I vowed I'd never go down that road)
You cannot get those years back. Think VERY carefully as Colin Scott suggests.
Only last month I was talking to someone in Spain who spent 5 years with an engineer partner building a steel 33 footer. They built the hull themselves also - that way they got the hull they wanted.
But if you do, then I wish you very good luck, and suggest that you choose the design and get the hull built to order - there are a few specialist builders of good repute who will do this, but take care of the commercial side - there are some horror stories about, with liquidations and all sorts as mentioned in other posts.
<hr width=100% size=1>Rgds
Phil
For me the fundamental question is - do you want to sail (or motor cruise) OR spend the next 2-3 years working like a dervish on a project which, given your time input required, is unlikely to yield any profit.
Find something that's seagoing, and then refit it as you go. That was my choice. (My Dad did have a Luke 5 tonner in the backyard for 7 yeras whilst he rebuilt her - I vowed I'd never go down that road)
You cannot get those years back. Think VERY carefully as Colin Scott suggests.
Only last month I was talking to someone in Spain who spent 5 years with an engineer partner building a steel 33 footer. They built the hull themselves also - that way they got the hull they wanted.
But if you do, then I wish you very good luck, and suggest that you choose the design and get the hull built to order - there are a few specialist builders of good repute who will do this, but take care of the commercial side - there are some horror stories about, with liquidations and all sorts as mentioned in other posts.
<hr width=100% size=1>Rgds
Phil
charles_reed
Active member
Opportunity cost of fitting out
Generally most builders reckon the hull costs are about 30% of a finished boat.
I've seen a number of home-completed boats, nearly all done by professional boatbuilders or those with outstanding craft skills.
As common as hens' teeth are cruising boats completed by your average DIY yachtie.
Good luck with your project, the greater, unmentioned cost is that of YOUR time, patience, skill and willpower not the £50K that you'll need to buy the parts to equip an ocean-cruising boat of that size.
<hr width=100% size=1>
Generally most builders reckon the hull costs are about 30% of a finished boat.
I've seen a number of home-completed boats, nearly all done by professional boatbuilders or those with outstanding craft skills.
As common as hens' teeth are cruising boats completed by your average DIY yachtie.
Good luck with your project, the greater, unmentioned cost is that of YOUR time, patience, skill and willpower not the £50K that you'll need to buy the parts to equip an ocean-cruising boat of that size.
<hr width=100% size=1>
Philsy
New member
Re: Opportunity cost of fitting out
Well, thank you for all the varied and considered replies - much appreciated.
I've mulled this over a lot in my mind and have come to the conclusion that now is not the right time for me to embark on such a project - family and work commitments have to come first.
It's a shame, because I'd like the satisfaction of building my own boat to my own specifications. I'd know I'd have a well-built boat that I could rely on, rather than trusting a secondhand one with an uncertain past.
Oh well, maybe one day...
Once again, thanks for the help.
Cheers
Phil
<hr width=100% size=1>
Well, thank you for all the varied and considered replies - much appreciated.
I've mulled this over a lot in my mind and have come to the conclusion that now is not the right time for me to embark on such a project - family and work commitments have to come first.
It's a shame, because I'd like the satisfaction of building my own boat to my own specifications. I'd know I'd have a well-built boat that I could rely on, rather than trusting a secondhand one with an uncertain past.
Oh well, maybe one day...
Once again, thanks for the help.
Cheers
Phil
<hr width=100% size=1>