Coronavirus and Greece

[nortada]

I'm not convinced about masks, I think there is a lot of mask paranoia and imo it came all to late. I would say being in the fresh air at Plaka isn't too much of a risk in the big scheme of things but the travelling there may be a different story.

Possibly came too late but that is not an argument for not using them now.

If they work - great. If not, there is nothing lost. If enough people do not wear masks their efficacy will never be known.

I agree, that in sparsely populated open spaces, masks are probably not necessary but in crowded indoor environments?

 

[Tony Cross]

I'm not convinced about masks, I think there is a lot of mask paranoia and imo it came all to late. I would say being in the fresh air at Plaka isn't too much of a risk in the big scheme of things but the travelling there may be a different story.

The mask isn't to protect you. It's to protect everyone else from you.

Whilst most masks do prevent some ingress of COVID virus particles the main purpose of mask wearing is so that those who are asymptomatic (and don't know it) are not infecting all those around them.

Wearing a mask is a sign that you care about your fellow man (or woman, or whatever).

 

[Tony Cross]

I am in the Athens region. Whilst walking the street I witnessed an old man with a mask break down in the middle of a road. Some people lifted him and put him on the pavement. No idea what he had but it makes one be more cautious.

I have seen some Greek doctors, are convinced of their competence.

Been in some Greek hospitals and they are old, dirty and about 1950 north European quality.

Wheelchairs with a sheet of plywood as a seat. Decades old stuff.

I cannot let that inaccurate fake news slur go unanswered I'm afraid.

I'm in the fortunate position of having had a fair amount of medical care both in the UK and here in Greece. Greece wins hands down, it's not even close.

Yes, the buildings are in need of repair but so were many UK hospitals when I was last there. The level of care and the competence of the medical staff in Greece is equal to that in the UK. All the senior doctors completed their training elsewhere; Germany, the USA, the UK, Holland, France. I have never yet come across a Greek doctor (and I've seen quite a few) who doesn't speak good English. Here, around 50% of the nursing staff speak enough English to get by.

The equipment found in Greek hospitals and the range of treatment options available is equal to that found in the UK. Not only have I experienced that here but so have large numbers of UK ex-pats here. I know of no ex-pat who has been here for a year or two who would ever consider going back to the UK for treatment.

One of the areas where Greek healthcare far exceeds that in the UK is in the speed and ease of access. I have a colonoscopy every two years, to make my appointment I phone the consultant who actually does them and he makes me an appointment. This year it was for three weeks hence. The drugs I take for my atrial fibrillation are subsidised by the Greek health system, so instead of paying 70 Euros a month for my anticoagulant I pay only 18 Euros.

Even the private system here is head and shoulders better than the UK. I had surgery for colon cancer in 2009 and elected to go private. The cost of 4 nights in the private hospital in Heraklion, the Professor of Medicine at the University Hospital (who was my surgeon) his assistant, the anaesthetist, the oncologist, the hire of the operating theatre and staff, all the disposable instruments, all the drugs, and five years of aftercare cost me just a shade over 7000 Euros.

My wife has recently had a very serious case of HSV1 in her right eye. She chose to see the (excellent) private eye surgeon we have here. Not only has he cleared it up (he said it was the worst he'd ever seen and feared she might loose the sight in that eye) but he's seen her every three or four days for about the last 6 weeks. The total cost she has had to pay for him is 30 Euros - plus the cost of the drugs, which weren't expensive.

When we lived in the UK we too believed the myth that the NHS provides world beating healthcare. It's not until you experience healthcare in other countries that you realise what bull that claim is. The idea that Greece has an old fashioned, decrepit and crumbling healthcare system is something those in the UK like to tell themselves to feel better at waiting 6 months for an appointment!

Where the Greek healthcare system fails is in the citizen's ability to access it. The employer pays all the employee's health insurance, if you lose your job you'll get state aid, which includes healthcare, for 12 months. If you've failed to get another job in 12 months, and in the recent crisis many many people have been jobless for a long time, then you lose your health insurance. That is a failing of government however, not a failing of Greek healthcare.

 

[Chris_Robb]

The mask isn't to protect you. It's to protect everyone else from you.

Whilst most masks do prevent some ingress of COVID virus particles the main purpose of mask wearing is so that those who are asymptomatic (and don't know it) are not infecting all those around them.

Wearing a mask is a sign that you care about your fellow man (or woman, or whatever).

Here Here - it is extremely uncaring not to wear one

 

[Chris_Robb]

I cannot let that inaccurate fake news slur go unanswered I'm afraid.

I'm in the fortunate position of having had a fair amount of medical care both in the UK and here in Greece. Greece wins hands down, it's not even close.

Yes, the buildings are in need of repair but so were many UK hospitals when I was last there. The level of care and the competence of the medical staff in Greece is equal to that in the UK. All the senior doctors completed their training elsewhere; Germany, the USA, the UK, Holland, France. I have never yet come across a Greek doctor (and I've seen quite a few) who doesn't speak good English. Here, around 50% of the nursing staff speak enough English to get by.

The equipment found in Greek hospitals and the range of treatment options available is equal to that found in the UK. Not only have I experienced that here but so have large numbers of UK ex-pats here. I know of no ex-pat who has been here for a year or two who would ever consider going back to the UK for treatment.

One of the areas where Greek healthcare far exceeds that in the UK is in the speed and ease of access. I have a colonoscopy every two years, to make my appointment I phone the consultant who actually does them and he makes me an appointment. This year it was for three weeks hence. The drugs I take for my atrial fibrillation are subsidised by the Greek health system, so instead of paying 70 Euros a month for my anticoagulant I pay only 18 Euros.

Even the private system here is head and shoulders better than the UK. I had surgery for colon cancer in 2009 and elected to go private. The cost of 4 nights in the private hospital in Heraklion, the Professor of Medicine at the University Hospital (who was my surgeon) his assistant, the anaesthetist, the oncologist, the hire of the operating theatre and staff, all the disposable instruments, all the drugs, and five years of aftercare cost me just a shade over 7000 Euros.

My wife has recently had a very serious case of HSV1 in her right eye. She chose to see the (excellent) private eye surgeon we have here. Not only has he cleared it up (he said it was the worst he'd ever seen and feared she might loose the sight in that eye) but he's seen her every three or four days for about the last 6 weeks. The total cost she has had to pay for him is 30 Euros - plus the cost of the drugs, which weren't expensive.

When we lived in the UK we too believed the myth that the NHS provides world beating healthcare. It's not until you experience healthcare in other countries that you realise what bull that claim is. The idea that Greece has an old fashioned, decrepit and crumbling healthcare system is something those in the UK like to tell themselves to feel better at waiting 6 months for an appointment!

Where the Greek healthcare system fails is in the citizen's ability to access it. The employer pays all the employee's health insurance, if you lose your job you'll get state aid, which includes healthcare, for 12 months. If you've failed to get another job in 12 months, and in the recent crisis many many people have been jobless for a long time, then you lose your health insurance. That is a failing of government however, not a failing of Greek healthcare.

Tony, I totally agree having had 2 stays in a Greek Hospital. Yest the premises are old, but the Clinical care I had was certainly better than the Royal Surrey Cardiac ward! I had to discharge myself and get my wife to drive me to A&E in another Hospital - where I got the care, and nearly the operation (Ventricular Ablation ) but sadly that went by the board on Jan 3rd when the flue season started and my transfer to London was cancelled. I am still waiting, and have reluctantly decided that If its left to the Autumn/Winter again - it will go the same way.......No alternative but to go Private, a process I started yesterday -uninsured.... Others do not have that choice.....

 

[Mr Cassandra]

I'm not convinced about masks, I think there is a lot of mask paranoia and imo it came all to late. I would say being in the fresh air at Plaka isn't too much of a risk in the big scheme of things but the travelling there may be a different story.

I think that's says more about you than it does about me.
I traveled back and frow in my Mercedes S320. Air conditioning and pollen filters.
Keep safe and other safe, where a mask.

 

[OldBawley]

I cannot let that inaccurate fake news slur go unanswered I'm afraid.

So, you did not read what I wrote or you did not understand it.



Greek doctors are good, same level of competence as Northern Europe but they have and take way more time for you so I prefer to see Greek doctors.

For one problem I consulted a Greek specialist and then second opinion a Dutch.

Both had the same conclusion.

The equipment of the Greek was old. He hurt me. The Dutch specialist had brand new stuff.

So to be sure I consulted a Belgian specialist. Same conclusion, only this guy was very advanced in learning about his speciality, clearly more knowlegeble

I am a wartime nurse (they call it Ambulancier) and read a few weeks about the symptoms, so know what they are talking about.

The difference was the used equipment and the price. The Dutch specialist costed 10 times more than the Greek one. ((400€ Holland, 40€ Greece) I pay everything private although I have insurance ( Obligatory in the Netherlands )

The waiting time to see a Dutch specialist is about 3 months, the Greek specialist sees me when I say so.

For an eye surgery (new lens) it takes half a day in Greece because I have to travel to Athens, the surgery itself takes 10 minutes. Private cost 600 €.

If I want the same procedure in Holland I have to go to Holland for months. First the house doctor, then a 3 month waiting time to see a specialist, next a three month waiting time to have the surgery, and then hospitalisation and several after cheques.

So I chose to have the lens put in here in Greece. After one hour in the brand new eye hospital I stood in Athens and went for a walk.



It is possible the equipment and hygiene are the same in Greece and GB. Not the same as Dutch and Belgian hospitals. BIG difference. All new and super modern. Also a lot of money.

I was in a hospital in Nafplion for food poisoning and the toilets there ware horrible. Think Africa is better.

I was examend by three old guys (doctors) in wife beaters ( summer and hot ) then a young female doctor. Had an IV with a litre of fluid lying next to a dying old women. Not even a curtain between us. Then I was released and had to pay : Nothing.

BTW because of the long waiting lists in Holland much Dutch people prefer to go to Belgium to be helped. Fast clean efficient.



I absolutely trust Greek doctors, would not want to be in a Greek hospital for Covid.

 

[Chris_Robb]

I think that's says more about you than it does about me.
I traveled back and frow in my Mercedes S320. Air conditioning and pollen filters.
Keep safe and other safe, where a mask.

You need 1 micron filters to get the virus out - electrostatic nature helps as opposed to liquids - where they need to be much finer...Source: PAL (aircraft and Operating theatre filtration) My sons job....
Large halls with aircon has insufficient filtration or change of air so virsus will accumulate and then it will be more catchable???

 

[grumpygit]

Possibly came too late but that is not an argument for not using them now.

If they work - great. If not, there is nothing lost. If enough people do not wear masks their efficacy will never be known.

I agree, that in sparsely populated open spaces, masks are probably not necessary but in crowded indoor environments?

The mask isn't to protect you. It's to protect everyone else from you.

Whilst most masks do prevent some ingress of COVID virus particles the main purpose of mask wearing is so that those who are asymptomatic (and don't know it) are not infecting all those around them.

Wearing a mask is a sign that you care about your fellow man (or woman, or whatever).

Of course it's a sign of staying legal and of politeness to wear masks but what are you wearing? To what quality is the filtration in microns of what you are wearing?
The size of the Covid virus is 0.125 microns so if you think what you are wearing is protecting you or others you are deluding yourselves.
If you think you are safe in your car the average new pollen filter is around 3 microns, IIRC I think Volvo is probably the best at 1 Micron as standard fit.
After 8 minutes max the mask can hold enough water droplets which in turn can be propelled with a cough or sneeze not far behind a open cough or sneeze.
If you think you are doing the world a favour by wearing a mask, your are not necessarily!

 

[alexsailor]

I do not wear a mask. No problems (except bigger supermarkets).

 

[Mr Cassandra]

You need 1 micron filters to get the virus out - electrostatic nature helps as opposed to liquids - where they need to be much finer...Source: PAL (aircraft and Operating theatre filtration) My sons job....
Large halls with aircon has insufficient filtration or change of air so virsus will accumulate and then it will be more catchable???

It's better sitting alone in my Merc, than on the metro

 

[Tony Cross]

Tony, I totally agree having had 2 stays in a Greek Hospital. Yest the premises are old, but the Clinical care I had was certainly better than the Royal Surrey Cardiac ward! I had to discharge myself and get my wife to drive me to A&E in another Hospital - where I got the care, and nearly the operation (Ventricular Ablation ) but sadly that went by the board on Jan 3rd when the flue season started and my transfer to London was cancelled. I am still waiting, and have reluctantly decided that If its left to the Autumn/Winter again - it will go the same way.......No alternative but to go Private, a process I started yesterday -uninsured.... Others do not have that choice.....

If you mean private healthcare in Greece you'll find it a lot cheaper than you expected.

 

[grumpygit]

So, you did not read what I wrote or you did not understand it.



Greek doctors are good, same level of competence as Northern Europe but they have and take way more time for you so I prefer to see Greek doctors.

For one problem I consulted a Greek specialist and then second opinion a Dutch.

Both had the same conclusion.

The equipment of the Greek was old. He hurt me. The Dutch specialist had brand new stuff.

So to be sure I consulted a Belgian specialist. Same conclusion, only this guy was very advanced in learning about his speciality, clearly more knowlegeble

I am a wartime nurse (they call it Ambulancier) and read a few weeks about the symptoms, so know what they are talking about.

The difference was the used equipment and the price. The Dutch specialist costed 10 times more than the Greek one. ((400€ Holland, 40€ Greece) I pay everything private although I have insurance ( Obligatory in the Netherlands )

The waiting time to see a Dutch specialist is about 3 months, the Greek specialist sees me when I say so.

For an eye surgery (new lens) it takes half a day in Greece because I have to travel to Athens, the surgery itself takes 10 minutes. Private cost 600 €.

If I want the same procedure in Holland I have to go to Holland for months. First the house doctor, then a 3 month waiting time to see a specialist, next a three month waiting time to have the surgery, and then hospitalisation and several after cheques.

So I chose to have the lens put in here in Greece. After one hour in the brand new eye hospital I stood in Athens and went for a walk.



It is possible the equipment and hygiene are the same in Greece and GB. Not the same as Dutch and Belgian hospitals. BIG difference. All new and super modern. Also a lot of money.

I was in a hospital in Nafplion for food poisoning and the toilets there ware horrible. Think Africa is better.

I was examend by three old guys (doctors) in wife beaters ( summer and hot ) then a young female doctor. Had an IV with a litre of fluid lying next to a dying old women. Not even a curtain between us. Then I was released and had to pay : Nothing.

BTW because of the long waiting lists in Holland much Dutch people prefer to go to Belgium to be helped. Fast clean efficient.



I absolutely trust Greek doctors, would not want to be in a Greek hospital for Covid.

I too have total regard and praise for the Greek medical profession. Yes the state hospitals are a bit frayed around the edges but don't let this lead too doubt the expertise and dedication of the medical staff. it's first class.
Not to bore you to much and these were private not state.
I had an accident on Aigina, went to Piraeus Metropolitan, I was seen straight away and had 20+ internal stitches and 64 staples plus 3 follow up visits to see the surgeon total €350. Another was one ruptured knee cartilage, from start to finish 7 day inc MRI all done by private establishments.
With now being shore based I go to the local Medical Centre, The odd things I have been with here as a walk in patient I get B.P. and ECG first. If I go to the state hospitals in Nafplio of Argos for a blood test or x-ray all these visits are FOC. If I get sent to any private consultants or specialist examination, these will cost normally between €50-70.
So lets not disparage the Greek Medical System, IMHO it's top notch. One day they might be saving you or one of your loved ones life.

 

[OldBawley]

When we ware wintering in Turkey for 11 years and cruising the west and south coast of Turkey some 10 years ago we also came into contact with Turkish health care.

In general I would say that competence was ok, it is no rocket science, the equipment and attitude of Turkish doctors and dentists…. that was almost medieval in some places.

My wife had lost a gold inlay, it just had to be glued in place again. We ware in Ayvalik and the dentist was not well equipped. He was also not competent, he had no glue. His drill was a mechanical thing with small long belts and his compressor was made of an old fridge compressor. He clearly had not much to do, you could see people did not went to see dentists.

He was searching for a drill in a metal box and I could see he had about 5 drills.

Only 15 years ago.

Later we went to see a dentist in Göcek and he was state of the art as was his practice.

In tourist frequented areas lots have changed now. Germans go and take dentist / hollidays.

Come back home with a hole set of new biters. You know, the extra wide, big, absolutely white false teeth. Takes a fortune and a year in Germany.

Private clinics for tourists only are a big thing in Turkey now. Money.



Most Greek doctors I met had studied in Italy. And one spoke no English at all. But I understand Italian. (and some Latin)

Where the Greek doctors are at their best is in been human, have interest. But that is typically Greek.

 

[Clancy Moped]

Greek visiting hours leave a lot to be desired.....

 

[OldBawley]

We ware anchoring in Göcek, Turkey and I had an asthma problem. Probably due to the pollen of the millions of pines around Göcek.

I rowed us on land and we went to see a doctor. We ware directed to some sort of small dispensary as they have in Greece also. I knew the doctor was there, his office was open and I could see him sitting there.

But the problem was typically Turkish. A woman acting as a secretary wanted to see my passport before I could see the doctor. What ? Why ? It would take me at least 1,5 h to go and get my passport, reasoning I would bring the passport later did not help. I normally never have my passport on my body, see no reason why. In Holland no identification duty exists.

So I faked a hart attack. I started acting crazy and dropped on the floor. I thought “ that will get me to the doctor.”

It did, but not the way I had envisioned it.

My wife who thought my attack was real started crying, from behind the corner two sort of fireman came and pushed a dirty smelly old oxygen mask on my face and when I took it off, one sat on my body holding me down and forcing me to breath through the stinky mask.

In the end, I saw the doctor and went by two days later with my passport. No idea why they had to see it.

It was a stupid act, I must have been convincing, my wife who knew I had done 25 years of amateur theatre went for it. Stupid I know. Even at old age a fool. Now she can laugh at it.

 

[Irish Rover]

We ware anchoring in Göcek, Turkey and I had an asthma problem. Probably due to the pollen of the millions of pines around Göcek.

I rowed us on land and we went to see a doctor. We ware directed to some sort of small dispensary as they have in Greece also. I knew the doctor was there, his office was open and I could see him sitting there.

But the problem was typically Turkish. A woman acting as a secretary wanted to see my passport before I could see the doctor. What ? Why ? It would take me at least 1,5 h to go and get my passport, reasoning I would bring the passport later did not help. I normally never have my passport on my body, see no reason why. In Holland no identification duty exists.

So I faked a hart attack. I started acting crazy and dropped on the floor. I thought “ that will get me to the doctor.”

It did, but not the way I had envisioned it.

My wife who thought my attack was real started crying, from behind the corner two sort of fireman came and pushed a dirty smelly old oxygen mask on my face and when I took it off, one sat on my body holding me down and forcing me to breath through the stinky mask.

In the end, I saw the doctor and went by two days later with my passport. No idea why they had to see it.

It was a stupid act, I must have been convincing, my wife who knew I had done 25 years of amateur theatre went for it. Stupid I know. Even at old age a fool. Now she can laugh at it.

?

 

[Davy_S]

I thought that i was crazy, feigning a heart attack, but at least i only did it attempting to get a discount in a Greek shop!

 

[Mr Cassandra]

I too have total regard and praise for the Greek medical profession. Yes the state hospitals are a bit frayed around the edges but don't let this lead too doubt the expertise and dedication of the medical staff. it's first class.
Not to bore you to much and these were private not state.
I had an accident on Aigina, went to Piraeus Metropolitan, I was seen straight away and had 20+ internal stitches and 64 staples plus 3 follow up visits to see the surgeon total €350. Another was one ruptured knee cartilage, from start to finish 7 day inc MRI all done by private establishments.
With now being shore based I go to the local Medical Centre, The odd things I have been with here as a walk in patient I get B.P. and ECG first. If I go to the state hospitals in Nafplio of Argos for a blood test or x-ray all these visits are FOC. If I get sent to any private consultants or specialist examination, these will cost normally between €50-70.
So lets not disparage the Greek Medical System, IMHO it's top notch. One day they might be saving you or one of your loved ones life.

They saved mine in Argos. 15 days in there with Sepsis, from diving in to the water in Poros in the corner.
Fantastic doctors and nurses.
Food was crap. Lost 15 kg.
I remember when I was a lot better, walking down the street from the hospital with the drip stand on wheels plugged in to my arm.
Having a beer and a souvlaki.

 

[grumpygit]

They saved mine in Argos. 15 days in there with Sepsis, from diving in to the water in Poros in the corner.
Fantastic doctors and nurses.
Food was crap. Lost 15 kg.
I remember when I was a lot better, walking down the street from the hospital with the drip stand on wheels plugged in to my arm.
Having a beer and a souvlaki.

As we know in Greece the food is usually brought in by family and friends, anyway you are probably like me and needed to lose the 15kg
I can't fault you with the beer and souvlaki but omg swimming in Poros waters . . . . do you have a death wish?